Ready to Give up - Dosing problems

[vlangel]

Yes, I think that is good advise about doing consistent water changes and get your alkalinity in line. Actually, when you are all settled I don't think you will be dosing much. Your tank is only a little bigger than mine and you have LPS and softies like me. I also have a clam which consumes calcium but I use Instant Ocean which does not have as much calcium or magnesium as your salt. I only dose with 2 part once a week and magnesium every other week. I do a 4g WC twice a week though. All this to say that the water changes will go a long way toward remedying your problem.

 

[Bernardhny]

Another update

Update:

I did the last water change on Tuesday night. 20 gallons of the 65 total tank size including the sump. I have done nothing else to the tank since except for feed the fish my normal feeding schedule.

Alk- 122ppm / 6.832 (hannah tester
Calcium - Above 600 (hannah tester)
Magnesium - 1580 (red sea mag pro)
Salinity - 1.026
Phosphate .5
Nitrate - 10ppm
temp 78.8

The test after doing the water change the alk was at 166ppm. So in the last 3 days I have dropped Alk from 166ppm to 122ppm. Everything else has stayed the same (calcium is higher than I expected but I did not test calcium after the water changes).

So what can cause the alk to drop from 9.26 to 6.8 so fast?

I am going to do my normal 10G water change today which should replenish the alk but I predict the 10G of water change will only raise the alk by 10ppm. Clearly this is not enough and I will require dosing. If I calculate what it will take to go from 122ppm to 166ppm that is a dosage of 114.3ml. 114.3 divided by 3 = 38.1ml dosage per day to keep the tank at 166 (9.26). However my ultimate goal is an alk of 10.5 which roughly equates to 189ppm which requires a dosage of 63ml per day.

I would have expected to see the calcium or magnesium numbers to be low, but they were high after the water changes. Can this high of magnesium and calcium cause the alk to go down?

Thoughts?

By the way, I do very much appreciate everyones comments. I am not ignoring or disregarding anything anyone is saying, I am just taking it all in and trying to absorb all of it.

Oh to answer a few more questions people are asking. I do skim 24/7 with a Remora S Pro. My skimmer is very productive and I clean it every week. I clean my sock every week, I have plenty of chaeto in my sump, the base of the sump is miracle mud. The tank has been up for 15 months. I have plenty of coraline algae growing, my corals all look healthy (one thing I noticed is that if my chemistry is off my leather coral is the first to show it, but the leather is thriving).

Thanks

Bernard

PS I am not starting to dose again. I am just reporting the numbers.

 

[Bernardhny]

I think I might have figured this out. Could it be the GFO reactor causing the problem? I have read that if you are using too much GFO or if it is wasted and needs to be changed that it can cause alkalinity drops? I have not changed my GFO in a month nor have I changed the carbon.

 

[StikHedRon]

I think the problem is your testers honestly. I would try and find a buddy that uses a titration style kit and compare yours to his/hers just to confirm yours is reading correctly. I tried the hanna alk test and I would get inconsistent numbers all the time. I don't see how your params could be that high unless your putting to much salt in your mix to bring salinity up..... Red Sea Pro should be 450 cal, 1340 mag and 12.2 alk. If you are doing constant water changes and accurately mixing up new change water than your parameters should be no higher than this really, maybe a tad but not as much as your saying your levels are. This discrepancy would have me questioning my test kits accuracy. Just my .02

 

[mcarroll]

Update:

I did the last water change on Tuesday night. 20 gallons of the 65 total tank size including the sump. I have done nothing else to the tank since except for feed the fish my normal feeding schedule.

Alk- 122ppm / 6.832 (hannah tester
Calcium - Above 600 (hannah tester)
Magnesium - 1580 (red sea mag pro)
Salinity - 1.026
Phosphate .5
Nitrate - 10ppm
temp 78.8

The test after doing the water change the alk was at 166ppm. So in the last 3 days I have dropped Alk from 166ppm to 122ppm. Everything else has stayed the same (calcium is higher than I expected but I did not test calcium after the water changes).

So what can cause the alk to drop from 9.26 to 6.8 so fast?

I am going to do my normal 10G water change today which should replenish the alk but I predict the 10G of water change will only raise the alk by 10ppm. Clearly this is not enough and I will require dosing. If I calculate what it will take to go from 122ppm to 166ppm that is a dosage of 114.3ml. 114.3 divided by 3 = 38.1ml dosage per day to keep the tank at 166 (9.26). However my ultimate goal is an alk of 10.5 which roughly equates to 189ppm which requires a dosage of 63ml per day.

I would have expected to see the calcium or magnesium numbers to be low, but they were high after the water changes. Can this high of magnesium and calcium cause the alk to go down?

Thoughts?

By the way, I do very much appreciate everyones comments. I am not ignoring or disregarding anything anyone is saying, I am just taking it all in and trying to absorb all of it.

Oh to answer a few more questions people are asking. I do skim 24/7 with a Remora S Pro. My skimmer is very productive and I clean it every week. I clean my sock every week, I have plenty of chaeto in my sump, the base of the sump is miracle mud. The tank has been up for 15 months. I have plenty of coraline algae growing, my corals all look healthy (one thing I noticed is that if my chemistry is off my leather coral is the first to show it, but the leather is thriving).

Thanks

Bernard

PS I am not starting to dose again. I am just reporting the numbers.

Whether you can see it caking onto the glass again or not, precipitation is still happening on top of whatever "normal" alk usage would be going on. This took several weeks to stop in my case.

Precipitation will exhaust your alkalinity long before putting a dent in your other parameters. That's how little alkalinity is in the water (carbonates) vs general hardness.

I would not start dosing en masse, but I would take care to not let alkalinity drop much more than it has. Only dose back up to seawater levels of alk (~7dKh) and/or only compensate by changing a lot of water.

Honestly, google for articles where Randy Holmes Farley discusses precipitation to get a fuller understanding of what has happened to your tank.

It's a pain and expensive, but water changes are the best thing you can do right now. Dose alk only as needed when you can't do any more water changes.

-Matt

 

[mcarroll]

I think the problem is your testers honestly. I would try and find a buddy that uses a titration style kit and compare yours to his/hers just to confirm yours is reading correctly. I tried the hanna alk test and I would get inconsistent numbers all the time. I don't see how your params could be that high unless your putting to much salt in your mix to bring salinity up..... Red Sea Pro should be 450 cal, 1340 mag and 12.2 alk. If you are doing constant water changes and accurately mixing up new change water than your parameters should be no higher than this really, maybe a tad but not as much as your saying your levels are. This discrepancy would have me questioning my test kits accuracy. Just my .02

It's true that you need to correctly follow their directions to an exacting level...and until you get the hang of these Checkers it's not that easy. Especially the Calcium Checker.

The fact that he's getting repeatable results is a good sign he's ot having this problem, but being able to compare with a traditional kit like Salifert would be a really nice reassurance.

-Matt

 

[spsfrag]

I have to say the tests may be off or one thing I have to ask don't take offense to this but make sure you aren't mixed up on your dosers like thinking your adding alk while you are adding calcium, why is calcium so high i think thats the max for the hanna, also i use dosers and always have to think twice when mixing my two part. Theres usually a simple thing to a problem like this it sounds like you know what your doing just a mixup going on.

 

[Paul B]

Honestly, google for articles where Randy Holmes Farley discusses precipitation to get a fuller understanding of what has happened to your tank.

But don't read the parts where he talks about driveway ice melter. :hat:

 

[kpiotrowski]

But don't read the parts where he talks about driveway ice melter. :hat:

Aquarium Chemistry: A Homemade Two-Part Calcium And Alkalinity Additive System ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com



what salt mix are you using? I suspect not with reef levels but that ok right now as you still want to lower your ca, and mg. but like I said if you are shooting for reef level if you don't use reef salt then your levels will lower with each change.

I have to say you are on track. i think you are considering too many things at once and what is probably the only prob is you were overdosing and maybee need some test kit practice...maybe. finding someone to cross refefence with thier test kits was a great suggeation regarldess. can't hurt!

agian,please tell us what salt mix? look up its levels of the ca,alk,mg

 

[AquamanE]

I dont have 60 years experiance but do have 25.

Stop dosing. get your Mag in place >1350. Then measure Alk and Ca. Wait 3-4 days then measure alk/ca again. Calculate your daily consumption. Dose that EQUALLY. Do not doe Alk higher or lower than Ca. Both are consumed EQUALLY. Check Randy Holmes Farley articles on dosing tanks. You will learn a lot.

 

[NanaReefer]

I dont have 60 years experiance but do have 25.

Stop dosing. get your Mag in place >1350. Then measure Alk and Ca. Wait 3-4 days then measure alk/ca again. Calculate your daily consumption. Dose that EQUALLY. Do not doe Alk higher or lower than Ca. Both are consumed EQUALLY. Check Randy Holmes Farley articles on dosing tanks. You will learn a lot.

Great advise!

 

[kpiotrowski]

I dont have 60 years experiance but do have 25.

Stop dosing. get your Mag in place >1350. Then measure Alk and Ca. Wait 3-4 days then measure alk/ca again. Calculate your daily consumption. Dose that EQUALLY. Do not doe Alk higher or lower than Ca. Both are consumed EQUALLY. Check Randy Holmes Farley articles on dosing tanks. You will learn a lot.

Ca. and alk are not used equally. example is a sps tank will used more calcium than a softy tank, but all biological procces can affect alk. therefore they will use varying degrees of each. also must consider the concentration of the source of the media being dosed.
my dosing pump dose brs brand and are not equall!

 

[spsfrag]

Same here I use more alk. I used to chase alk but gave up for stability. My calcium can swing a bit but alk needs to stay. The Hanna maxes out at 600 so who know what the calcium really is. I have very good pe and growth and ATM my alk is 7.5 calc 350. I increased dosing from 160 ml/day to 180. But usage will go up and down depending on what I feed.

 

[mcarroll]

But don't read the parts where he talks about driveway ice melter. :hat:

All in good time.

-Matt

 

[Bernardhny]

Went to my LFS today to have the alk, calcium, and mag tested. Using their kits my numbers were right in line with their results. Mag is high 1560, calcium is high 530 and alk was 9. Will test tomorrow and see how things look. I predict alk will drop to 6.

 

[kpiotrowski]

Went to my LFS today to have the alk, calcium, and mag tested. Using their kits my numbers were right in line with their results. Mag is high 1560, calcium is high 530 and alk was 9. Will test tomorrow and see how things look. I predict alk will drop to 6.

Good news that test match fish store. I hope your prediction is wrong, and am betting against you. if your alk is 9 today....prob say 8.87 lol.

if it is 6 that would be crazy, and you should go straight buy a lottery ticket and predict those numbers,lol!

btw, your parameters at this point are nothing to concern yourself with. Time to start getting a read on the tanks weekly usage is all.

alk is most important. your calcium can drop to 300 no prob, your mag can go 1100. so don't try and chase those right now!

 

[Bernardhny]

I was right

Dropped from 9 to 7.26 overnight. I just tested alk and it was 130ppm

So what do I win for having the tank that won't hold alkalinity? Nothing but more headaches. I am going to test Magnesium and Calcium in a few minutes. Fun Fun Fun

 

[StikHedRon]

Your alk could possibly be dropping due to your params being out of balance, a balanced alk level would be 23.772 dkh, yeah that would not be good. Need to get that cal and mag down so everything can become balanced.

 

[Bernardhny]

I agree...but how? More water changes? I have already changed 45G out of the 65G over the last 5 days.

 

[Jon Warner]

Sometimes when your numbers are all over the place... and you can't trust the test kits because the results are crazy, it's time to just stop adding and changing things for a bit.

Think of saltwater as a plastic bucket full of marbles. Lots of red and white marbles in there representing Chloride and Alkalinity Ions and some green marbles representing Magnesium and some blue marbles representing Calcium. When the bucket is full, if you add more marbles some marbles are going to spill out.

All I need to know is that you have Calcium at 600+ and Magnesium of 1600. There is more than a possibility that you're having a precipitation event going on here...