REALLY :( 6 weeks fallows, thought it was velvet now spots are back...

Christopher Davis

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absolutely bummed beyond belief, went fallow for 6 weeks fish were in Qt the whole time in copper. I was told this was velvet, looks like it’s not velvet my purple tang has 4 white visible dots today after being added back to the DT 48hrs ago... I’m so bummed right now. This tank move has been nothing but problematic considering throwing in the towell. Another 12 weeks man I might not make it this time...
 
Sorry to hear this :(

It is possible that your fish had both ich and velvet. Which is why we generally recommend a 76 day fallow period just to play it safe.
 
Sorry to hear this :(

It is possible that your fish had both ich and velvet. Which is why we generally recommend a 76 day fallow period just to play it safe.

We chatted a while back and we thought it was velvet, perhaps it’s sctallu ich now? Man I sure have been through the ringer with diseas from my clownfish with brook, to cauliflower, internal parasites, to velvet, and now the icing on the cake ich...
thank you @Humblefish for helping me through all of those.

I did manage to pull the fish that had the most dots 4 to be exact and slam her back in Qt.
None of the others are showing signs yet. But if they do in going to have to start the heartbreaking process all over again for double the length, September just seems way to long away.

Maybe try running kick ich and see what happens
The fallow period is honestly the most difficult thing that I have ever had to do in this hobby and I’m grateful that I haven’t had to do it in my 10 years reef keeping until now.
 
As someone who had to do two 76 day fallow periods within about 7 months I can understand the frustration. The 2nd one was after I was running everything through QT and then had a purple tang that refused to eat so took a chance on pulling it from meds and adding to the DT. It was no fun, I counted down the days both times until I could add fish back. Since then though everything has been great, I learned a lot, and back to enjoying my healthy fish. Though I have a few tanks so I guess that helped me get through those days easier. This was on my biggest tank and the one I spend the most time on so it was pretty disheartening at first.

I debated about holding off on the 2nd one and then decided it was just quicker to remove the fish and get it over with. Having lost all my fish the first time to velvet and ich combo, I didn't want that again. Whether you treat them or try ich management, hope it all works out. Plenty of us have been in the same situation and understand how aggravating it is.
 
As someone who had to do two 76 day fallow periods within about 7 months I can understand the frustration. The 2nd one was after I was running everything through QT and then had a purple tang that refused to eat so took a chance on pulling it from meds and adding to the DT. It was no fun, I counted down the days both times until I could add fish back. Since then though everything has been great, I learned a lot, and back to enjoying my healthy fish. Though I have a few tanks so I guess that helped me get through those days easier. This was on my biggest tank and the one I spend the most time on so it was pretty disheartening at first.

I debated about holding off on the 2nd one and then decided it was just quicker to remove the fish and get it over with. Having lost all my fish the first time to velvet and ich combo, I didn't want that again. Whether you treat them or try ich management, hope it all works out. Plenty of us have been in the same situation and understand how aggravating it is.
It’s truly the worst feeling... when you do everything in your power for it to be rendered useless... I could pull out my hair right now. Worst part is they were all in quarantine for 6 weeks, man just tryping that got my blood boiling. And we are right back where we started in less than 2 days.
 
Now and then I hear from people here in Sweden that they get something they call "stress related ich" It comes and goes on individually fishes. If it in reality is an infection of Cryptocaryon irritans or not I do not know but typical is that it is only one fish affected. No one else seems be effected.

I had never has to use the oxydator in acute situations - only run as prevention. I have not get any infection of Cryptocaryon irritans in my aquaria during this time - but certainly I can´t say that it is because of the oxydator or not. The disease situation seems also to be different in Europe compared with the situation in the US. But there is other reports about using oxydators in order to defeat infection of Cryptocaryon irritans like this thread started by @atoll and even @najer have written about the use of Oxydators. Other post by atoll about oxydators.

To use an Oxydator is basically to treat the aquarium with an oxidising agent - in this case H2O2 - peroxide in normal language. In my earlier tank - I use Ozone in the same way. I succeeded to treat one outbreak of infection of Cryptocaryon irritans in my old aquaria by remove two clowns that show signs of infection (white spots on the body) – use TTM (or my own way of doing it – BTM (Bucket Transfer Method) and rise the Ozon level in the aquarium as much as I dare. After 7 days – I transfer back the clowns and they lived happily to the day they died. No outbreak in that aquarium after this.

The suggested method of how oxidising agent act on parasites are by oxidise the free-swimming stages of them. H2O2 is also in use at some Norwegian Salmon farms in order to defeat fish lice and gill flukes.

The Oxydator is in reality a very easy and ingenious dosing equipment that do not need any outside power. I always use Söchtings own solutions of peroxide because there can be different stabilizer in the peroxide solutions. I do not think it matter but it is a chemical I put into my aquarium and their solution has been proven to work.

I hope atoll and najer see this and come in with their experiences

There are commercial products that seems to use peroxide in the same way - an example Polyps Labs Medic. The reviews of this product are varying - everything between heaven and hell. Never use it by myself.


Sincerely Lasse
 
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Interesting as always @Lasse and hopefully useful to some or hopefully many people.
I use oxydators (Sochting here as well) for general aquarium health, clearer water and less glass cleaning, my corals always seem more vibrant and healthy IMO.
I am less of a fish person than most but have to say that I never quarantine fish and I have never had a fish disease in any of my tanks.
Because I don't do water changes just manual 2 part dosing I like the way it helps break down detritus also.
I can't recommend my way of running a tank but as natural as possible with minimum stress works for me.
If I did run a qt tank I would definitely have an oxydator in there and just observe for a few weeks before treating with chemicals!
 
Interesting as always @Lasse and hopefully useful to some or hopefully many people.
I use oxydators (Sochting here as well) for general aquarium health, clearer water and less glass cleaning, my corals always seem more vibrant and healthy IMO.
I am less of a fish person than most but have to say that I never quarantine fish and I have never had a fish disease in any of my tanks.
Because I don't do water changes just manual 2 part dosing I like the way it helps break down detritus also.
I can't recommend my way of running a tank but as natural as possible with minimum stress works for me.
If I did run a qt tank I would definitely have an oxydator in there and just observe for a few weeks before treating with chemicals!
Great stuff @Lasse @najer
Can you explain a little more? It’s safe on corals such as SPS? How do you test for oxygen levels? Ect?
 
Great stuff @Lasse @najer
Can you explain a little more? It’s safe on corals such as SPS? How do you test for oxygen levels? Ect?

Ok I will give you my answer, hopefully you will get 2 other more scientific answers as well!
I don't really test except keeping my kh stable.
My avatar pic is my "centre piece" coral in my big tank.
I have sps too.
I don't do waterchanges and manually dose a 2 part.
The only way it effects my corals is to make them look more healthy and vibrant!
If I had an orp probe I could give some evidence, maybe!
I would never run a tank without one! ;)

DSC_0003 by sshipuk, on Flickr
 
I have a Sochting Oxydator and only thing it did was aggravate my anemones so I had to pull it. Tried it a few times, and both times within 48 hours my anemones looked terrible, removed it and within 48 hours they were fine again. My ORP did seem to be going up a little each day and I would like to have used it to see if it had more benefits. I know there are people who swear by them, I know a few people who had the same experience as me with anemones and Oxydators. Maybe one day I will try it again. My SPS and clams were not affected, but it was never running long enough because of the anemone issues for me to say long term what affects if any it had.
 
I have a Sochting Oxydator and only thing it did was aggravate my anemones so I had to pull it. Tried it a few times, and both times within 48 hours my anemones looked terrible, removed it and within 48 hours they were fine again. My ORP did seem to be going up a little each day and I would like to have used it to see if it had more benefits. I know there are people who swear by them, I know a few people who had the same experience as me with anemones and Oxydators. Maybe one day I will try it again. My SPS and clams were not affected, but it was never running long enough because of the anemone issues for me to say long term what affects if any it had.

What strength peroxide were you using, how many catalysts and which size oxydator, there is a lot of fine tuning you can do?
 
What strength peroxide were you using, how many catalysts and which size oxydator, there is a lot of fine tuning you can do?
Oxydator A, 35% food grade peroxide that was mixed down to 9% on a 100 gallon tank, 1 catalyst.
 
What strength peroxide were you using, how many catalysts and which size oxydator, there is a lot of fine tuning you can do?
This might be a stupid question but how exactly does it kill the ick?
 
Very interesting, have considered purchase before, may just do it now.
Najer. What size is your tank?
My 450 litres is recommended - aquariums: 400-800 L, 2 catalysts, solution: 12% - that would only last for 10 days, that would be 2160mg of o2. Would aquariums: 200-400 L, 2 catalysts, solution: 6%, operating time: 20 days, O2/day: 540 mg be better?
The webpage l could order the solution from only lists 6 and 12%, no 9%.
Appreciate any advice.
 
I´m also "sorry" to say - since I start my new aquaria (2 years ago) and run an oxidator 24/7 - I´m in the same situation as najer. I do not either QT my fish but before I introduce newcomers - I let them be in my refugium for a week or two. This does not mean that this is because of using an oxidator because the disease situation seems to be different in EU compared with the situation in US.

However - I normally do not use things because of fancy words and so on - I use them because I know that they work or that I understand their function. Peroxide is an oxidiser - very aggressive - and form oxygen radicals of different types. Oxygen radicals is one of the most common natural "cell destroyer" that exist - many organisms use it as a defending tool (our macrophytes as an example) and therefore - among many multicellular and more advanced organism there exist a defence against active oxygen radicals - antioxidants. It means that more advanced organisms normally have develop a defense mechanism against free oxygen radicals - our sun burn as an example (read production of melanin). Photosynthetic corals - with a producer of free radicals inside their tissue - can be assumed to contain a lot of natural antioxidants too. Fish do contain a lot of this - crustacean the same.

It have been shown that bacteria, algae and some parasites will be oxidized by this active oxygen radical because of lack or not production strong enough of antioxidants. Some marine phytoplankton has high content of antioxidants but it seems like they also are sensitive to free oxygen radicals.

When I run my oxidator in the manor I normally do - 6 % H2O2 and 2 catalyst - I have not seen any negative effects to attaching microalgae (important for me to have a production of this because it is a food source for my large clean up crew) or anything else that is important for me. The pro I got (that I can show) is rather clear water (most of the yellowing substances will be oxidised and I have a huge production of them because of the construction of my refuge and I do not do any WC). The way this low concentration of peroxide theoretical can act on parasites and aggressive bacteria is to minimize the amount of them and let the natural immune system of the fishes develop.

I´m totally adware of the fact that if I get in an active infected fish of whatever - the amount of dangerous microorganisms can be to many and break through the normal immune system and that i need to rise the dosing of peroxide. The linked thread from atoll shows that it is possible at least with infections of Cryptocaryon irritans. When I introduce newcomers I normally rise my H2O2 concentration to 9- 12 % - still 2 catalyst (I have more in reserv if I need).

Is it reef safe? Normally - yes I think so. I have one caveat - in systems (or time) with high natural oxygen production from photosynthesis and especially low flow systems - there can be a problem with to high concentrations of active oxygen radicals from other sources than the corals own production of these active radicals. The natural defence system may be too weak. My solution to this should be to lower the light intensity during the active treatment period with higher concentrations of peroxide in the water (lower the light intensity - lower the photosynthesis - lower the natural production of radical oxygen species). Is it necessary to lower the intensity of the light - I do not know but this can be one reason why the reviews of Polyp Labs Medic differ so much about reef safe.

How does this "magic" doser work? IMO - it is one of the most ingenious solution I have seen.

A pic of the parts of my oxydator (there is other models but the working mechanism is the same. In the acrylic bottle you pull your wanted H2O2 solution and the number of catalyst you need (a catalyst is a smal part of the same clay as the cover and the top consist of). In the orange cap - there is a little hole. You need to use distilled or good RO water in order to mix your solution

0-jpg.583802

You turn the acrylic bottle upside down and put it in the in the ceramic outer bottle and put the round top over the acrylic bottle.

3-jpg.583806


4-jpg.583807

After this - you put the oxydator there you want it - I have put it in my sump just there the overflow from the skimmer apartment come out to the return apartment. Water level 10 cm above the top of the oxydator.

What´s happen now? The catalyst start to divide the H2O2 into H2O and free O atoms. The free O atoms will directly find another free O atoms and form Oxygen gas. The rate of Oxygen production is determined by number of catalyst and H2O2 concentration. The produced Oxygen gas will rise to the top of the upside down acrylic bottle and form a pressure that force uncatalyzed H2O2 out through the tiny hole in the orange cap into the space between the ceramic outer bottle and the acrylic bottle. The ceramic will catalyze most of the H2O2 and the free O atoms will form oxygen gas or oxidize organic matter - depending on what it hits first. Depending on concentration and number of catalysts some H2O2 will not be catalyzed and coming out in the water column and slowly form active oxygen radicals as free O atoms and others which will oxidize organic matter like yellowing substances and organisms with no or weak defence system against free oxygen radicals.

The concentration of H2O2 and number of catalyst is the toll you use in order to get the effect you want and it will give this continuously 24/7. There is a risk of overdosing - there is not easy to determine the concentration for the effect you want. You have as usual to observe you animals and see how they react.

When I write this post I realized the danger with combination of H2O2 dosing and high photosynthesis and I think that if you want to treat a existing reef - against an outbreak of what ever - with higher levels of H2O2 - run your light rather low during the treatment period.

Sincerely Lasse
 

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