OP
OP
So well stated...Excellent comparison to Bonsai. Art requires time to learn. Or, you can buy a paint-by-numbers set, but it won't be the same.
Recognizing the signs of...failure...?
- Thread starter Scott Fellman
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So well stated...Excellent comparison to Bonsai. Art requires time to learn. Or, you can buy a paint-by-numbers set, but it won't be the same.
Mike in CT
Valuable Member
Like every thing in life, it's ok to fail once in a while.....just make sure you learn from it.
OP
OP
I like the "mentor" idea...And you did touch on that other important point: The "experienced" reefer needs to be less dogmatic and more open minded, too. Otherwise, we develop a hobby "Mafia" that thinks they control all wisdom and knowledge. Even the "Tang Police" that would haunt "that other forum" were sort of over the top...I think some people meant well, but got too carried away in that dogmatic "gang mentality", creating a miserable place to be, IMHO. But I do agree- pass that knowledge on!
-Scott
don_chuwish
Smells something fishy
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If I reflect on my own relatively short span of experience, I can recall when we first started looking into getting a 'saltwater aquarium' for our daughter at Christmas. First problem - that deadline. Makes you rush things.
But we did a lot of research (we tend to go a little nuts that way) using online resources like forums. It quickly turned into drinking from a firehose - and not always sure of the quality of the source water.
Then when talking to the LFS folks we got their simplified, and I'm sure very well used, noobie briefing. "Yes you're fine with that canister filter, don't use those rocks and that sand, they're for freshwater (too complicated to explain why), you have to cycle the tank first, using some damsels is fine...live sand is a great way to start." etc. After all of our reading there was some advice we didn't quite buy into and some that helped fill gaps, but it was still nice talking to a real person. I understand how a harried LFS owner/employee needs to boil things down quickly and yes, make a sale once in a while. But they can really make or break a noobie's launch.
I spent years kludging fixes into that original setup trying to make it better.
- D
But we did a lot of research (we tend to go a little nuts that way) using online resources like forums. It quickly turned into drinking from a firehose - and not always sure of the quality of the source water.
Then when talking to the LFS folks we got their simplified, and I'm sure very well used, noobie briefing. "Yes you're fine with that canister filter, don't use those rocks and that sand, they're for freshwater (too complicated to explain why), you have to cycle the tank first, using some damsels is fine...live sand is a great way to start." etc. After all of our reading there was some advice we didn't quite buy into and some that helped fill gaps, but it was still nice talking to a real person. I understand how a harried LFS owner/employee needs to boil things down quickly and yes, make a sale once in a while. But they can really make or break a noobie's launch.
I spent years kludging fixes into that original setup trying to make it better.
- D
OP
OP
LOL I understand your mindset, and that is part of what we all have to grapple with: Not everyone "gets it" like we do...and that's okay. However, our responsibility is to share what we know in a non-dogmatic, helpful manner, in the hope that some of it will stick! (that's the tough part, right?)
-Scott
OP
OP
Excellent point...When we impose our "human" constraints (like how large a tank we can have, what equipment we can afford, timelines, etc.) it suddenly throws another variable into an already rather challenging equation. And I agree about your LFS point...Which is why I really hate hearing those "The LFS employees are stupid..." statements- We have to understand what they deal with, day in and day out...It's hard not to occasionally give customers the "abridged" version of "Reefkeeping 101", in the hope that you'll at least pique their interest to read up on the rest themseleves...If everyone got a copy of say, Bob Fenner's "Conscientious Marien Aquarist" with every new tank setup, what would that do to the hobby success rate? Of course, that makes the assumption that the neophyte would actually read it...
-Scott
DMan
Active Member
This is probably one of the best groups (reef2reef) that I've joined. To be honest I joined because there are a few members that belong to reef2reef who's opinions I really respect. A while back I had to leave a different group because it seemed like the advice and the information that was being relayed was so bad if not totally wrong. But I noticed I wasn't the only one. Some long time members had also left, and I've actually seen them on this site now. I don't know what happens but it seems like a group of individuals start giving out bad/wrong advice and it seems to just snowball. And then you get the silliest questions being asked and even more ridiculous answers.
I do belong multiple groups and I but I usually stick with the ones where I see people who I recognize as being on the hobby for a long time.
I wonder has anyone else had to leave a group (no names needed) because they felt the information was suffering.
I do belong multiple groups and I but I usually stick with the ones where I see people who I recognize as being on the hobby for a long time.
I wonder has anyone else had to leave a group (no names needed) because they felt the information was suffering.
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I have that book! I read it a lot.
Basic adherence to husbandry tasks, realize general rules are there for a reason. Trust me when i say you will NOT be the guy to keep a blue hippo in a 20 gallon tank or keep SPS under a cheap knockoff LED. Never assume, always have the proper equipment and test parameters often. Dont just dose when theyre low -- try to see how much they drop week to week, figure out the amount of top off you do during a week and adjust dosing to fit that schedule. Simple stuff the hobby requires patience and diligence.
OP
OP
Simple, beautiful point!
OP
OP
Yes, the patience and diligence are two components that many new reefers still need to grasp...Most get it, but there are still a frustratingly large number of people who need to learn the basics, IMHO. Gotta walk before you can run, right?
As the guy previously stated, we all have and will fail at some point in the future. And as the original poster said advice is a treacherous thing. Keep it generic and it can work however every tank is different so what works for one guy wont work for another.
Good points, Scott. I don't have much to add other than some reef keeping 'train wrecks' are inevitable and it's beneficial to know when someone can be helped...and when it's best just to jump out of the way 
Ralph.
Ralph.
Squamosa
Well-Known Member
Haha, too true and yes, we are in a golden age, in that we have ALL the knowledge at out fingertips, if only some people learnt how to harness it
I also like the fact that people have trained eagles to pluck drones out of the sky
Later...
Bruce Burnett
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so right about so much. I started getting into saltwater tanks around 1985 after being in fresh water. I got out of it in 2008 as I moved and had health issues, recently got back into it less than two years ago. Seems like I am starting over from scratch. The whole time I was into it before I had a 12-14 hour a day job that was unrelated. I read many books before and after getting into the hobby, I still read and am learning all the time. I read where newbies are asking if they need a controller, a refugium or reactors or if they can just get the tank setup and start adding fish and corals. I say start with a simple setup, know what you are planning on keeping and the requirements, read as much as you can before you buy anything. Then buy the size tank,stand, the correct lighting a sump and a great skimmer, test kits, live rock get it setup and running after you have had coralline algae growing well for a few months and your rock is fully cured then you are barely ready to get your feet or should I say your hands wet. You will still make mistakes but by going slowly you can hopefully correct the problem before your livestock dies. We all know that 90% of the time when something dies it is because we either did not do something we knew we should have done or we made changes too fast. You also have to learn that not everything you want to keep will do well in your setup.
I think this whole thread is the biggest problem for many of us "newbies" and for us trying to do our research. There are too many know it all's and too much asinine attitudes that creates a separation between us trying to learn and you who preach patience but then complain of our basic questions when we ask someone we feel we can trust. You may be frustrated with our basic questions but many of us research hours online and we get unlimited answers that we try to apply to our situation.
I am grateful for all advise I receive, but the reality is, I consistently find that there is many "experts" that don't have simple answers or solutions and yet posts like these, in my opinion, are demeaning to us new to this and not as biology versed as many of you.
Alternatively, I would never consider posting something like this, in a field where I am an expert, for all of the "newbies" to feel inferior to you, the all knowing. I am learning, that's why I am here, I will make mistakes, I am sure all of you have too. I've had fish or corals die, so has the "experts" I speak too, we "newbies" are not here to hurt your hobby, we are here to enjoy it too. In my opinion, the only true experts are the ones that live under the water, not me or you. So please, be respectful of our "basic" questions and no one should have to pay any dues, this is not an exclusive fraternity of CEO's or something you guys own, it's a hobby, we should all treat it that way
I am grateful for all advise I receive, but the reality is, I consistently find that there is many "experts" that don't have simple answers or solutions and yet posts like these, in my opinion, are demeaning to us new to this and not as biology versed as many of you.
Alternatively, I would never consider posting something like this, in a field where I am an expert, for all of the "newbies" to feel inferior to you, the all knowing. I am learning, that's why I am here, I will make mistakes, I am sure all of you have too. I've had fish or corals die, so has the "experts" I speak too, we "newbies" are not here to hurt your hobby, we are here to enjoy it too. In my opinion, the only true experts are the ones that live under the water, not me or you. So please, be respectful of our "basic" questions and no one should have to pay any dues, this is not an exclusive fraternity of CEO's or something you guys own, it's a hobby, we should all treat it that way
I'm still fairly new. I've killed a few fish (actually two but this is in the early days even for me) and several corals(some just haven't liked me). I try to do research (I spend over a year learning before I started my tank at all even with 10+ freshwater experience). But there are instances where I need help even after I've researched. One issue I've noticed is a some of the 'experts' are rude to newbies automatically assuming we don't know anything. (This is particularly bad on my local forum less so here).
