Red Sea NO 3 PO 4 X

I know you really don't like it and that's great.


You ask if I enjoy wasting money and I don't, I already have, listening to every opinion on the forum rant and rave against "big bad corporations". Well guess what, their product works, I have experience with it, you don't.

Why don't you use it yourself and find out instead of souring everyone's viewpoint.

You even say the methanol doesn't matter, but there's organisms that utilize it. Until you map out every single positive and negative of all of those organisms, you're just blowing hot air. Not sure what personal beef you have with Red Sea, but it's getting old. If you DIDN'T have a personal beef with Red Sea, then why the heck do you not trash talk denitrators that use methanol? You don't.

And stop talking down to me because I use something you think is a waste of money.

A good product should be able to stand on it's own without an individual insulting other members to validate the product.

Nuisances of intent/message are sometimes misinterpreted when communicating via forums/net.

Effective debate and exchange of alternative opinions comes to a halt when one uses personal insults to argue their position.
 
And the product does stand on it's own. In the other thread that blew up, I believe the ratio of 'for nopox' vs 'against nopox' was proabably 5:1?

The problem is, there's no debate. Yet some people pretend a single NMR at a low resolution, and a diy recipe that has 2 of 4 compounds in it, is good enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. That's FAR from scientific. Not my fault people accept that because of a couple people's reputation. Also if you look back, the first to really insult was the one saying I'm throwing money away. I did not insult with my previous comment, I wholeheartedly agreed.

In the future should I just say "you've never proven anything, come back when you have facts?" :p That's even less progressive. I've tried to make it a group effort of investigation, but people would rather argue. That's not my fault. Yet people still come back, to a thread inquiring about a product JUST to talk crap, based from "other people's opinions".
 
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I know you really don't like it and that's great.
.

It is shocking how mistaken you can be after we have debated this in hundreds of posts and I have said in every one of the threads that NOPOX works fine. So for the 213'th time, it is a fine product.

Why do you frequently feel the need to make my opinion more extreme? Is it just that it is easier to justify your opinion that I am wrong?
 
And stop talking down to me because I use something you think is a waste of money.

Example of talking down to you? I'd like to know so I can correct it. :)
 
Example of talking down to you? I'd like to know so I can correct it. :)

I recall back originally when I came back to the forum after a long break, the same situation occurred. Someone asked about nopox, I suggested it because it's worked very, very well for me. You said I was the only one. Then continued to "point and laugh" with several others, poking on various tangents. So telling me I'm the only one was not talking down to me?

I have no problem with you, but when you come into threads like this every single time, and always have to follow up with "but I've seen no evidence it's any better" continues to support the fact that you have some personal agenda to push. I find this further reinforced because I stumbled across a thread once where you got into an argument with the Red Sea rep, and poked fun at him in much the same way.
I've almost started to wonder if it's because of some personal dislike for the company or the people who run it. I've never heard you talk so negatively about any other reefing company. Perhaps I've missed those posts, but the attitude shown is far from the professional logical viewpoints of someone who cares about scientific proof over opinion.

This also is displayed as a personal problem because you do not theorize beyond face value. I say this because if you break it down, from what we HAVE learned, the formulation contains at least SOME of acetic acid, ethanol, methanol, and isopropyl alcohol. To say that acetic acid and ethanol is the same, is blatantly ignoring the facts. This also cuts out any further investigation of how the methanol and iso, could be influencing other factors. I've found several classes of organisms that utilize methanol specifically in denitrification in unique ways to their genus/species. Also the observation of methanol denitrifiers having slower growing biomass than that of the ethanol utilizers. This in itself is a major point which is probably more positive than negative, in our aquariums. (see stringy bacterial references reported when carbon dosing)
But this is even before investigating the isopropyl tangents.

Neither you nor anyone else here, including myself, know everything or can foresee all circumstances, so to state "it's not any better than other carbon dosing sources" is a suggestion of scientific proof, which you do not have. This also goes against the reports we even saw in the last thread about nopox that turned into a "diy nopox is the same" thread. People reported success and those chiming in were far greater for nopox than for diy nopox or only acetic acid.

Maybe I'm being a nit-picker, but if we're not here to make accurate statements and progress our understanding of the hobby, what are we doing here?
Otherwise if you want to make fun of me because I use something you consider unnecessary, go for it. But don't you dare pass of opinion as fact when we don't have all the answers.
 
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Vodka 375ml
Ro/DI 125ml
Vinegar 500ml
Theres your own recipe for NOPOx. Or as close as it gets without a bunch of HI Tech testing.
I also use the Rd Sea product, especially if it's on sale. But the above works just as well.
 
I recall back originally when I came back to the forum after a long break, the same situation occurred. Someone asked about nopox, I suggested it because it's worked very, very well for me. You said I was the only one. Then continued to "point and laugh" with several others, poking on various tangents. So telling me I'm the only one was not talking down to me?

I have no problem with you, but when you come into threads like this every single time, and always have to follow up with "but I've seen no evidence it's any better" continues to support the fact that you have some personal agenda to push. I find this further reinforced because I stumbled across a thread once where you got into an argument with the Red Sea rep, and poked fun at him in much the same way.
I've almost started to wonder if it's because of some personal dislike for the company or the people who run it. I've never heard you talk so negatively about any other reefing company. Perhaps I've missed those posts, but the attitude shown is far from the professional logical viewpoints of someone who cares about scientific proof over opinion.

This also is displayed as a personal problem because you do not theorize beyond face value. I say this because if you break it down, from what we HAVE learned, the formulation contains at least SOME of acetic acid, ethanol, methanol, and isopropyl alcohol. To say that acetic acid and ethanol is the same, is blatantly ignoring the facts. This also cuts out any further investigation of how the methanol and iso, could be influencing other factors. I've found several classes of organisms that utilize methanol specifically in denitrification in unique ways to their genus/species. Also the observation of methanol denitrifiers having slower growing biomass than that of the ethanol utilizers. This in itself is a major point which is probably more positive than negative, in our aquariums. (see stringy bacterial references reported when carbon dosing)
But this is even before investigating the isopropyl tangents.

Neither you nor anyone else here, including myself, know everything or can foresee all circumstances, so to state "it's not any better than other carbon dosing sources" is a suggestion of scientific proof, which you do not have. This also goes against the reports we even saw in the last thread about nopox that turned into a "diy nopox is the same" thread. People reported success and those chiming in were far greater for nopox than for diy nopox or only acetic acid.

Maybe I'm being a nit-picker, but if we're not here to make accurate statements and progress our understanding of the hobby, what are we doing here?
Otherwise if you want to make fun of me because I use something you consider unnecessary, go for it. But don't you dare pass of opinion as fact when we don't have all the answers.

Hi!
Might I suggest you re-read the threads without assuming hostile intent? I have never seen anyone "point and laugh" at all re nopox, nor have I ever seen Randy bash it. I'll I have ever seen Randy say is "It's a fine product".....much as vodka, vinegar or other oft used carbon sources are fine products as well.
The part you seem upset about is that it doesn't appear anyone has presented any compelling evidence that nopox performs anybetter/or sufficiently better, than any diy carbon receipe to justify it's significant extra cost to many. I would have to see a "catch my breath" *stunning* difference between using it, and using plain old vodka and/or vinegar (for those of us who carbon dose).

I asked you once before and you didn't answer, so I will try again. Do you have some vested interest in the product? Do you sell it or work for the company?

Cheers!
 
Hi!
Might I suggest you re-read the threads without assuming hostile intent? I have never seen anyone "point and laugh" at all re nopox, nor have I ever seen Randy bash it. I'll I have ever seen Randy say is "It's a fine product".....much as vodka, vinegar or other oft used carbon sources are fine products as well.
The part you seem upset about is that it doesn't appear anyone has presented any compelling evidence that nopox performs anybetter/or sufficiently better, than any diy carbon receipe to justify it's significant extra cost to many. I would have to see a "catch my breath" *stunning* difference between using it, and using plain old vodka and/or vinegar (for those of us who carbon dose).

I asked you once before and you didn't answer, so I will try again. Do you have some vested interest in the product? Do you sell it or work for the company?

Cheers!
To me there are many different ways to do things in This hobby so be open to other people's opinions I listen and read them all and do what I think is best for my aqurium to me aqurium a are like a fingerprint there is never anyone like the other water ,different corals temperature,humidity where we live, flow , lighting they are all different be leave that or not but its true everyone is here to help each other so thanks everyone for helping me understand this product
 
Vodka 375ml
Ro/DI 125ml
Vinegar 500ml
Theres your own recipe for NOPOx. Or as close as it gets without a bunch of HI Tech testing.
I also use the Rd Sea product, especially if it's on sale. But the above works just as well.
How long have you used this recipe? I've never seen a homemade recipe for a vinegar/ethanol dosing mix! :)
 
I recall back originally when I came back to the forum after a long break, the same situation occurred. Someone asked about nopox, I suggested it because it's worked very, very well for me. You said I was the only one. Then continued to "point and laugh" with several others, poking on various tangents. So telling me I'm the only one was not talking down to me?

I have no problem with you, but when you come into threads like this every single time, and always have to follow up with "but I've seen no evidence it's any better" continues to support the fact that you have some personal agenda to push. I find this further reinforced because I stumbled across a thread once where you got into an argument with the Red Sea rep, and poked fun at him in much the same way.
I've almost started to wonder if it's because of some personal dislike for the company or the people who run it. I've never heard you talk so negatively about any other reefing company. Perhaps I've missed those posts, but the attitude shown is far from the professional logical viewpoints of someone who cares about scientific proof over opinion.

This also is displayed as a personal problem because you do not theorize beyond face value. I say this because if you break it down, from what we HAVE learned, the formulation contains at least SOME of acetic acid, ethanol, methanol, and isopropyl alcohol. To say that acetic acid and ethanol is the same, is blatantly ignoring the facts. This also cuts out any further investigation of how the methanol and iso, could be influencing other factors. I've found several classes of organisms that utilize methanol specifically in denitrification in unique ways to their genus/species. Also the observation of methanol denitrifiers having slower growing biomass than that of the ethanol utilizers. This in itself is a major point which is probably more positive than negative, in our aquariums. (see stringy bacterial references reported when carbon dosing)
But this is even before investigating the isopropyl tangents.

Neither you nor anyone else here, including myself, know everything or can foresee all circumstances, so to state "it's not any better than other carbon dosing sources" is a suggestion of scientific proof, which you do not have. This also goes against the reports we even saw in the last thread about nopox that turned into a "diy nopox is the same" thread. People reported success and those chiming in were far greater for nopox than for diy nopox or only acetic acid.

Maybe I'm being a nit-picker, but if we're not here to make accurate statements and progress our understanding of the hobby, what are we doing here?
Otherwise if you want to make fun of me because I use something you consider unnecessary, go for it. But don't you dare pass of opinion as fact when we don't have all the answers.

I was asking for a specific example and the exact sentence where I talked down to you, not your paraphrasing what you thought I said.

You asked about personal agenda. Definitely I have one: scientific accuracy. If your or anyone else's post lack that, I will come on every instance I see and suggest why it is wrong. :)
 
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How long have you used this recipe? I've never seen a homemade recipe for a vinegar/ethanol dosing mix! :)

There are recipes around for the main organic ingredients in NOPOX based on chemical analysis (acetic acid and ethanol are the largest volume ingredients, followed by lesser amounts of isopropanol and methanol). The latter two may just be there to denature the ethanol and make it a lot cheaper than taxable drinking ethanol. Or they may be intentional additives.
 
There are recipes around for the main organic ingredients in NOPOX based on chemical analysis (acetic acid and ethanol are the largest volume ingredients, followed by lesser amounts of isopropanol and methanol). The latter two may just be there to denature the ethanol and make it a lot cheaper than taxable drinking ethanol. Or they may be intentional additives.
Interesting. It never occurred to me to Google the recipe for a carbon dosing homebrew! :)
 
Interesting. It never occurred to me to Google the recipe for a carbon dosing homebrew! :)

Here's my summary from another discussion based on the analysis of the basic organic ingredients:

"I'm certain the ratio is fairly unimportant, but going by post #48, if you mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water, you'll be pretty close. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water."

It assumes 80 proof vodka and 5% acidity vinegar. It leaves out the methanol and isopropanol, which are present at fairly low levels (less than 10% of the main ingredients).
 
Here's my summary from another discussion based on the analysis of the basic organic ingredients:

"I'm certain the ratio is fairly unimportant, but going by post #48, if you mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water, you'll be pretty close. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water."

It assumes 80 proof vodka and 5% acidity vinegar. It leaves out the methanol and isopropanol, which are present at fairly low levels (less than 10% of the main ingredients).

Hi Randy,

Do you see any advantages to making the above vodka/vinegar/di water mix, over dosing just vinegar, or vodka?
In your opinion, is it worth it to make the above mix, vs just plunking a bottle of vinegar or vodka under the dose pump?

Thanks!
 
Hi Randy,

Do you see any advantages to making the above vodka/vinegar/di water mix, over dosing just vinegar, or vodka?
In your opinion, is it worth it to make the above mix, vs just plunking a bottle of vinegar or vodka under the dose pump?

Thanks!
One thing that may or may not be a consideration is that you'll dose a LOT more volume of vinegar to get the equivalent carbon dose than you will the mix or straight vodka, mostly due to the dilute nature of vinegar.
 
One thing that may or may not be a consideration is that you'll dose a LOT more volume of vinegar to get the equivalent carbon dose than you will the mix or straight vodka, mostly due to the dilute nature of vinegar.

I just switched from straight vodka to straight vinegar about 2 weeks ago. I found I am using about 6x more vinegar than vodka. Mathematically I know it should be about 8x, but practically it's less than expected, not sure why it works out that way in my system.

Cheers!
 
I just switched from straight vodka to straight vinegar about 2 weeks ago. I found I am using about 6x more vinegar than vodka. Mathematically I know it should be about 8x, but practically it's less than expected, not sure why it works out that way in my system.

Cheers!
As long as it works for you, then that's great! If you're dosing manually, the extra volume might be a real pain. If you have a dosing pump, no problem! I wonder if there is some benefit to switching back and forth between an acid and an alcohol as the carbon source, especially with respect to cyanobacteria outbreaks.
 

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