Red Sea NO3:POX4X Real Time Review.

[ksed]

Good work guys. Very interesting thread.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Just to share my experience with DIY Nopox - i.e. etahnol 17% +acetic acid 3%, both analytical grade, no other stuff in it (methanol or isopropanol). My system is 78 gal SPS dominated, after more than 7 months of using DIY Nopox parameters are as follows: NO3 - 0.2ppm (salifert), PO4- 0.012 (lab spectrophotometer), no phosphate remover used, 10% weekly wc Red Sea regular salt. Feeding 3 times per day, 12 grams of frozen food in total. Maintenance daily DIY Nopox dose 3 ml (1 ml per 100 l water). So despite the lack of methanol and isopropanol in it, it works more than perfect in therms of phosphate and nitrate reduction, coral colors are also very good. The only issue I had is cyano, it was there before to start with diy nopox, but did not disappear.
From today I switched to acetic acid, made a solution that have same amount of carbon as nopox, and started with same maintenance dose, I'm really curious what will be the difference. I'll not change anything else. Will keep you informed.

Curious about this part. Never had issues with cyano and nopox.
It makes me wonder, given the number of cyano stories I hear about with vinegar/vodka, if it's not the extra stuff aside from the vinegar/vodka. I highly doubt the makers use anything other than tap water to dilute the ethanol/acetate.

Using tap water in the tank explains the cyano... heh.

 

[jason2459]

People that have used Red Sea's nopox have experienced cyano as well. Straight vinegar seems to have the smallest amount of reports with it. But those that use straight vinegar have also had cyano.

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

People that have used Red Sea's nopox have experienced cyano as well. Straight vinegar seems to have the smallest amount of reports with it. But those that use straight vinegar have also had cyano.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Certainly true. Organic carbon dosing in general can drive cyano to be worse than before dosing, and folks should be ready to deal with that whatever brand they choose to use.

Here are a couple of random quotes that come up on google:

"I have bern using nopox for 2 months now and have gotten a bad cyano outbreak!"

"Decided that i wantedlower nitrates so i started dising Nopox in december. Now no3 is at 1 and pi4 between 0-.01. The problem that i am having is ggat i now have cyano on my sand. I Reduced the nopox from 1 to .5 to .25 ml per 25 gallons per red seas instructions. How do i rid myself of cyano? I also have hair algae in the overflow but not in the dt or fuge. The rest of my parameters are spot on."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It makes me wonder, given the number of cyano stories I hear about with vinegar/vodka, if it's not the extra stuff aside from the vinegar/vodka. I highly doubt the makers use anything other than tap water to dilute the ethanol/acetate.

Using tap water in the tank explains the cyano... heh.

Does it? Hardly.

Your are obviously just speculating that a food product would somehow use poorer water than an aquarium product (I might expect the reverse in most cases), and that the small amount dosed).

But even if the whole dose used contained the typical concerning nutrients of tap water, it just cannot measure up as an important contribution because the dose is so low.

Let's take a seeming worst case, where some shifty producer of low quality vinegar adds all of the water as tap water (hard to imagine based on the manufacturing process, but let's go with your assertion).

And let's assume another worst case, that the tap water contains 5 ppm phosphate (I've never heard of a tap water with higher than that, but perhaps others have).

So what happens if, as per typical scenarios, you are dosing 60 mL vinegar per 100 gallons per day?

So the added phosphate is equivalent to 0.0008 ppm per day. (60 mL of 5 ppm diluted into 100 gallons)

I have shown in studies that most reefers add on the order of 0.02 to 0.3 ppm of phosphate per day in foods, 25 to 375 times as much.

Consequently, there can not ever be enough phosphate in the tap water in added vinegar to even get close to the amount of phosphate present in the foods reefers feed each day.

 

[jason2459]

Above talk got me curious so why not just ask. This could make the case to mix Kalk with Vinegar to precipitate out any potential metals if concerned. I'm not. I asked for the source of their water and if it was filtered but I asked a follow up question again specifically asking if they filtered in any way the water so hope to get a follow up answer.

From original question to Heinz:

Hi Jason,

Thank you for visiting www.heinz.com.

We use potable water. Depending on where the product is made, we use either well or municipal water sources; municipal water is chlorinated.

If you haven't done so already, please add our site to your favorites and visit us again soon!

Sincerely,

Julian Franklin
Director, Consumer Relations



Edit: and to add I use store brand like Great Value. I just figured I'd hit up one of the largest makers of distilled white vinegar. What they do does not imply all distilled white vinegar is made the same.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks, Jason.

Don't forget to add them to your favorites.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

we use either well or municipal water sources; municipal water is chlorinated.

This is similar to the bottled water everyone thought was better, that came from some random cities tap.. lol

And Jason2459, correlation does not imply causation, but it sure does mean more than nothing.
Here's a comparison from google searches: (remember, if you use quotes, it HAS to be on the page to be returned, though this doesn't account for ads)
39,800 results for "vinegar" "cyano"
2,740 results for "nopox" "cyano"
10 results for "nopox cyano"
9 results for "vinegar cyano"
no results for "vinegar causing cyano"
no results for "nopox causing cyano"
1,610 results for "vinegar" "cyano problem"
261 results for "nopox" "cyano problem"
441 results for "vinegar dosing" "cyano problem"
3 results for "nopox dosing" "cyano problem"
1,370 results for "vinegar dosing" "cyano"
517 results for "nopox dosing" "cyano"
64,400 results for "vinegar" "cyano" "help"
4,250 results for "nopox" "cyano" "help"

That's:
107,630 hits for vinegar and cyano issues
7,781 hits for nopox and cyano issues

You get the gist. Though it's not fully scientific it's better than saying,
"People that have used Red Sea's nopox have experienced cyano as well. Straight vinegar seems to have the smallest amount of reports with it. But those that use straight vinegar have also had cyano.

Correlation does not imply causation."

Thank you computers for making our anecdotal evidence gathering easier. Of course this completely cuts out the hits that would result from the actual name, uhh, no304x?
I did this to show another person I was not the only one with a success story with nopox, their own opinion seemed to trump that as well. Which is very unscientific, so you can't even say to them "correlation does not imply causation" as they've allowed their personal feelings to get the better of their judgement. A true scholar of science can never forget one single truth, we will never know everything.

 

[biom]

Very nice update and I am looking forward to the change results!

Thank you Randy, some interesting results four days after change - nitrates raised from 0.2 to 2.5 ppm, and alkalinity consumption also raised, may be because of nutrients availability. Tomorrow will test for phosphates. There are no other noticeable changes except strong vinegar odor coming from sump area (i dont like how acetic acid smells).

 

[jason2459]

.....
Thank you computers for making our anecdotal evidence gathering easier. ....

You are an odd fellow. I do hope you placed a date restriction on that and should continue on with all the different spellings of nopox people have used...


I fully will stick with Correlation does not imply causation in this dispute of which I'm not really disputing anything other then nopox users have also experienced cyano issues as well. Not saying nopox was or was not the cause.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This is similar to the bottled water everyone thought was better, that came from some random cities tap.. lol

And Jason2459, correlation does not imply causation, but it sure does mean more than nothing.
Here's a comparison from google searches: (remember, if you use quotes, it HAS to be on the page to be returned, though this doesn't account for ads)
39,800 results for "vinegar" "cyano"
2,740 results for "nopox" "cyano"
10 results for "nopox cyano"
9 results for "vinegar cyano"
no results for "vinegar causing cyano"
no results for "nopox causing cyano"
1,610 results for "vinegar" "cyano problem"
261 results for "nopox" "cyano problem"
441 results for "vinegar dosing" "cyano problem"
3 results for "nopox dosing" "cyano problem"
1,370 results for "vinegar dosing" "cyano"
517 results for "nopox dosing" "cyano"
64,400 results for "vinegar" "cyano" "help"
4,250 results for "nopox" "cyano" "help"

That's:
107,630 hits for vinegar and cyano issues
7,781 hits for nopox and cyano issues

You get the gist. Though it's not fully scientific it's better than saying,
"People that have used Red Sea's nopox have experienced cyano as well. Straight vinegar seems to have the smallest amount of reports with it. But those that use straight vinegar have also had cyano.

Correlation does not imply causation."

Thank you computers for making our anecdotal evidence gathering easier. Of course this completely cuts out the hits that would result from the actual name, uhh, no304x?
I did this to show another person I was not the only one with a success story with nopox, their own opinion seemed to trump that as well. Which is very unscientific, so you can't even say to them "correlation does not imply causation" as they've allowed their personal feelings to get the better of their judgement. A true scholar of science can never forget one single truth, we will never know everything.

FWIW, that search is of zero value for the following two important reasons that you have ignored, but if done in a better fashion, it even disputes your own conclusions!!!!! That is really quite funny, IMO.

1. Finding a particular organic and "cyano" on the same page does not say the organic contributed to the cyano any more than finding phosphate and GFO on the same page would say the GFO caused the phosphate. Many people HAVE cyano and want to treat to reduce it using various treatments.

Your search even counts the times I have said that vinegar seems to cause LESS cyano than vodka. And I've said that a lot.

2. Your survey takes no account of the number of users.

If we search on seemingly unrelated terms,

"vinegar" "reef" --> 638,000 results
"NOPOX" "reef" --> 13,500

Consequently, there are seemingly 47 times as many people writing about vinegar in reefs as NOPOX in reefs, and yet you report it is only 107,630/7781 = 13.8 times more likely to be mentioned in connection with cyano!

If anything, that suggests vinegar is less likely to be associated with cyano on web pages than is NOPOX. Curious.

 

[jason2459]

Above talk got me curious so why not just ask. This could make the case to mix Kalk with Vinegar to precipitate out any potential metals if concerned. I'm not. I asked for the source of their water and if it was filtered but I asked a follow up question again specifically asking if they filtered in any way the water so hope to get a follow up answer.

From original question to Heinz:

Hi Jason,

Thank you for visiting www.heinz.com.

We use potable water. Depending on where the product is made, we use either well or municipal water sources; municipal water is chlorinated.

If you haven't done so already, please add our site to your favorites and visit us again soon!

Sincerely,

Julian Franklin
Director, Consumer Relations



Edit: and to add I use store brand like Great Value. I just figured I'd hit up one of the largest makers of distilled white vinegar. What they do does not imply all distilled white vinegar is made the same.

The follow up reply

Hi Jason,

Thank you for visiting www.heinz.com.

White, and Apple Cider vinegars are filtered and pasteurized to make them sparkling clear.

Better-quality aged wine, cider or malt vinegars are often left unfiltered and unpasteurized, in which case the bacteria will form at the top and sometimes sink to the bottom.

If you haven't done so already, please add our site to your favorites and visit us again soon!
Sincerely,

Julian Franklin
Director, Consumer Relations


edit: sent another follow up asking exactly what they do for the filtering. So, just like we use tap or well water at home most also use RO/DI filters to make it "crystal clear" for our aquariums... lol

 

[scardall]

IMO neither vinegar or NOPOX are the major contributors to people getting cyno in there tanks. The tanks that got an outbreak were already biologically on the edge and one more shift tipped the scales(bio-balance) and Cyno showed up. At least for me, I have used NOPOX with No Cyno what so ever for 5 months now. I'm willing to bet most who got cyno have Sand beds too. fyi I do not. Just my 2cents

 

[Fishpalace]

A very good thread even though I do not understand the science behind a lot of the conversation.

I have had a reefer 450 set up for 6 months now and been using nopox combined with reef energy a&b since week 3 and no reactors.

Started dosing 1ml per day via an apex dos doser and now up to 8.5ml per day and have gradually increased based on bioload and weekly water tests by increasing by 0.1ml per day so a gradual increase. Always dose at night between midnight and 6:00am and PH seems ok.

No3 have been between 2 & 5 and no4 between 0.008 and 0.03 so happy with this range. Also run skimmer wet and has an impact as if skimmer is playing up and runs dry this appears to have a negative effect and when running wet but not overflowing (empty once per day) it has a really good balance to it.

I have a bit of bubble algae and the odd rock with cyan but nothing to make me lose sleep or worry about. I don't anticipate having a perfect tank and ok with the above.

Have a mixed reef of LPS and hardy SPS and touch wood all good with nice growth.

The key for me is stability only making small changes but also to do with lighting, flow, maintenance and other parameters not just nopox dosing.

Paul

 

[biom]

Just to share my experience with DIY Nopox - i.e. etahnol 17% +acetic acid 3%, both analytical grade, no other stuff in it (methanol or isopropanol). My system is 78 gal SPS dominated, after more than 7 months of using DIY Nopox parameters are as follows: NO3 - 0.2ppm (salifert), PO4- 0.012 (lab spectrophotometer), no phosphate remover used, 10% weekly wc Red Sea regular salt. Feeding 3 times per day, 12 grams of frozen food in total. Maintenance daily DIY Nopox dose 3 ml (1 ml per 100 l water). So despite the lack of methanol and isopropanol in it, it works more than perfect in therms of phosphate and nitrate reduction, coral colors are also very good. The only issue I had is cyano, it was there before to start with diy nopox, but did not disappear.
From today I switched to acetic acid, made a solution that have same amount of carbon as nopox, and started with same maintenance dose, I'm really curious what will be the difference. I'll not change anything else. Will keep you informed.

Thank you Randy, some interesting results four days after change - nitrates raised from 0.2 to 2.5 ppm, and alkalinity consumption also raised, may be because of nutrients availability. Tomorrow will test for phosphates. There are no other noticeable changes except strong vinegar odor coming from sump area (i dont like how acetic acid smells).

Experiment ended unexpectedly soon . Just coming from lab - phosphates reach 0.61 ppm!!! nitrates 5 ppm and the front glass is covered by brown green algae and cyano become worst, everything else is ok. I switched back to diy Nopox, hope system will stabilize soon. May be system needs more time, but it looks risky to me to continue, since phosphates rose more than 50 times in less than 5 days.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Experiment ended unexpectedly soon . Just coming from lab - phosphates reach 0.61 ppm!!! nitrates 5 ppm and the front glass is covered by brown green algae and cyano become worst, everything else is ok. I switched back to diy Nopox, hope system will stabilize soon. May be system needs more time, but it looks risky to me to continue, since phosphates rose more than 50 times in less than 5 days.

Wow, that's quite interesting. How did you figure the vinegar dose?

 

[biom]

I made some calculations and prepared acetic acid solution with the same carbon amount as noox, i dont remember exactly, i need to see my notes, but it was something like 18-19% iirc.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

You are an odd fellow. I do hope you placed a date restriction on that and should continue on with all the different spellings of nopox people have used...
I fully will stick with Correlation does not imply causation in this dispute of which I'm not really disputing anything other then nopox users have also experienced cyano issues as well. Not saying nopox was or was not the cause.

Not odd, but thanks for the personal attack.
I would tell you something, but I'm not here for that.

All I'm suggesting, and what you don't admit to, is you said something, based with nothing. You did not say anything but the common phrase used by those who don't know any more, and then followed with an opinionated statement you try to change in a follow-up statement.

Original statement:
Straight vinegar seems to have the smallest amount of reports with it (reports of cyano)

Now:
I'm not really disputing anything other than* nopox users have also experienced cyano issues as well

Be sure next time when you make such statements, you provide at least some degree of evidence. Like another individual, saying "you're the only one to have success with nopox" is one of the dumbest, most opinionated, emotion-fueled statements that can be said. Every one of us has access to Google or whatever search engine you use, and can scour the vast amount of information the internet has, including statements that give light as to how the world works.
But you call me odd because I use the tools available to me.

It's funny because the internet forum kings are still spouting the same as what they were 4-5 years ago. But the world has progressed. Even just the other day they found vitamin c is required for skeletal growth in corals.

Are you going to accept that, investigate it, or say it's not real because the forum hasn't verified it. Even though it's been verified by teams of reasearchers who actually ARE working in a field closely related to the study of corals?

Oh, and your responses from Heinz that don't include your original statements~
Filtered water could be "filtered" through a coffee filter. Unless it's DI water, you're introducing something unintentionally. Even the guy who did the NMR test remarked how pure nopox is. Though I digress, it's still only at 500mhz. If they could analyze it with a higher resolution, perhaps we could see more. Unless the manufacturer of one of those machines is wrong in their own user manual.

 

[biom]

Don't Feed the Troll

 

[jason2459]

Kungpaoshizi I appreciate you trying to add to the conversation but unfortunately I don't see anything that will speak reason to you. I will refrain from the back and forth.