Red Sea NO3:POX4X Real Time Review.

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

No it uses crushed coral and sulphur pellets and it doesn't need feeding . Will be 3 weeks tomorrow at the moment I am getting 0 nitrite and 2ppm nitrate from the filter output and about 8 to 10ppm nitrate filter input will be slow process but looks like it is going in the right direction.

Sulfur denitrators certainly work well for many people. Just bear in mind that when used as you are, they will slowly boost calcium relative to alkalinity, and won't do much for phosphate.

 

[Itacan]

So...JaysLittleOcean, any updates? I was looking at Nopox as alternative to gfo, depending on how successful you are.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So...JaysLittleOcean, any updates? I was looking at Nopox as alternative to gfo, depending on how successful you are.

FWIW, just in general, organic carbon dosing is usually much more effective for reducing nitrate than phosphate, so is often not a direct replacement for GFO. I use both at the same time since the compliment each other.

 

[potatocouch]

I shake my NoPox bottle before dosing and I've been under-dosing as what my LFS instructed me to do ...

55 gallon tank with average of 40 ppm to 80 ppm No3 and Po4 of 0.25 ....
Shallow Sand Bed .. never did maintenance to the sand bed.
Never blow detritus of my LRs.
1 cube of frozen food (no rinse).
Kole Tang, 2 clowns & Sunburst Anthias.
LPSs & softies.
Tunze 9410 DOC skimmer.

So my dosing regime so far:
40 days into NoPox ... started with 2 ml - 5 ml gradually and I'm now into 6 ml dosing daily.
Skimmer has been working quite hard and skimming wet and taking gunk more than usual (yellow sort of tea-coloured skim mate).
BUT, for the past 40 days No3 has been constant at 40 ppm ~ 80 ppm.

So what I did:
Frustrated and sent an email to Aviad (Red Sea) which he advised that I've been under-dosing these last 40 days and to keep it at 6 ml.
He also said to rinse the food with RODI water, which am planning to do going forward.

We'll see what's going to happen in next couple of weeks.

 

[slicko]

that doesnt make sense you are under dosing but keep the dose the same? at those reading i would double the dose if it were my tank.

 

[potatocouch]

that doesnt make sense you are under dosing but keep the dose the same? at those reading i would double the dose if it were my tank.

Day 1 (Saturday 9 Jan 2016): Dosed 2 ml.
Day 2 (Sunday 10 Jan 2016): Dosed 2 ml.
Day 3 (Monday 11 Jan 2016): Reading pH 7.4, No3 80 ppm & Po4 0.25 ppm. Dosed 2 ml.
Day 4 (Tuesday 12 Jan 2016): Reading pH 8.2, No2 0 ppm & No3 40~80 ppm. Dosed 2 ml.
Day 5 (Wednesday 13 Jan 2016): Dosed 2 ml.
Day 6 (Thursday 14 Jan 2016): Dosed 2 ml.
Day 7 (Friday 15 Jan 2016): Dosed 2 ml. Reading No3 40~80 ppm.
Day 8 (Saturday 16 Jan 2016): 10% WC; Dosed 2 ml. Reading No3 40~80 ppm, Po4 0.25 ppm.
Day 9 (Sunday 17 Jan 2016): Dosed 2 ml.
Day 10 (Monday 18 Jan 2016): Dosed 2 ml.
Day 11 (Tuesday 19 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 12 (Wednesday 20 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 13 (Thursday 21 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 14 (Friday 22 Jan 2016): 15% WC; Dosed 3 ml.
Day 15 (Saturday 23 Jan 2016): LFS reading as above; dosed RF A 50 ml, RF B 50 ml, RF C 60 ml & NoPox 3 ml.
Day 16 (Sunday 24 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 17 (Monday 25 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 18 (Tuesday 26 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 19 (Wednesday 27 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 20 (Thursday 28 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 21 (Friday 29 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 22 (Saturday 30 Jan 2016): Dosed 3 ml.
Day 23 (Sunday 31 Jan 2016): up-dose to 4 ml; dosed 4 ml [day 1 for 4 ml dosing]; reading No3 40 ppm & Po4 0.25 ppm.
Day 24 (Monday 1 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 25 (Tuesday 2 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 27 (Wednesday 3 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 28 (Thursday 4 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 29 (Friday 5 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 30 (Saturday 6 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 31 (Sunday 7 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 32 (Monday 8 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 33 (Tuesday 9 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 34 (Wednesday 10 Feb 2016): Dosed 4 ml.
Day 35 (Thursday 11 Feb 2016): Dosed 5 ml.
Day 36 (Friday 12 Feb 2016): Dosed 5 ml.
Day 37 (Saturday 13 Feb 2016): Dosed 5 ml.
Day 38 (Sunday 14 Feb 2016): Dosed 6 ml.
Day 39 (Monday 15 Feb 2016): Dosed 6 ml.
Day 40 (Tuesday 16 Feb 2016): Dosed 6 ml.
Day 41 (Wednesday 17 Feb 2016): Dosed 6 ml.

 

[slicko]

ok.

to start off you need to measure the current no3/po4 before u increase dosage ammount.

you said

"So what I did:
Frustrated and sent an email to Aviad (Red Sea) which he advised that I've been under-dosing these last 40 days and to keep it at 6 ml.
He also said to rinse the food with RODI water, which am planning to do going forward."

this advice i do not agee with other than that you have been under dosing (which i agree)

you are not following the instructions on the bottle of nopox.

"start with the reccommended daily dose and adjust until desired no3/po4 level is acheived"

 

[potatocouch]

ok.

to start off you need to measure the current no3/po4 before u increase dosage ammount.

you said

"So what I did:
Frustrated and sent an email to Aviad (Red Sea) which he advised that I've been under-dosing these last 40 days and to keep it at 6 ml.
He also said to rinse the food with RODI water, which am planning to do going forward."

this advice i do not agee with other than that you have been under dosing (which i agree)

you are not following the instructions on the bottle of nopox.

"start with the reccommended daily dose and adjust until desired no3/po4 level is acheived"

I have been under dosing, yeah? Is that what you trying to say?

I agree! I should have started with 6 ml and then cut back the dosing .... BUT on the safe side, I've decided to start little and gradually increasing ...

I agree, I shouldn't have threw my frustration towards Red Sea just because I haven't been following the manual.

I'll see how I go with 6 ml dose and RODI-rinsed food.

 

[slicko]

yes imo you have been under dosing.

i would be upping the dose 1ml every 2-3 days until i reached disired no3/p04 level and back off to maintain.

dont wash you food theres great nutrients that your tank/fish wants, instead manage the nutrients you add.

 

[cvicente]

The stn and color fade could be due to too much too soon. I did that recently with 5% vinegar for dosing. I went from 5ml to 10ml to 15 ml to 20 ml over a months time, 5 ml a week increase and noticed my color was fading and stn on 4 different corals. I dropped back to 10ml daily and noticed stn stopping and color in all my corals except 1 milli started coming back. The milli may be done for

I've been looking for information on this STN/RTN problem with carbon dosing. From what I read bacteria strains behave differently depending on the carbon source used. The coral holobiont is disturbed by carbon dosing as bacteria multiply in great number, both beneficial and opportunistic strains that consume coral tissue. We don't know exactly what bacterias are in our tanks since we put corals from all over the world, both marinecultured and frags form other tanks. For mortals like many of us performing bacterial cultures or getting access to high tech equipment to identify each bacteria in our system is nearly impossible.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So what I did:
Frustrated and sent an email to Aviad (Red Sea) which he advised that I've been under-dosing these last 40 days and to keep it at 6 ml.
He also said to rinse the food with RODI water, which am planning to do going forward.

We'll see what's going to happen in next couple of weeks.

OK, let us know what you find, but in general, I do not think that rinsing of most foods will significantly alter the amount of phosphate added since there is just so much in the food and not that much that is washed away as free phosphate (although it certain may depend on the food used).

I'd also mention a concern with rising foods is washing away potassium, at least from frozen foods where cell membranes have been partly broken from freezing and potassium is not held by anything other than the cell membrane. Such rinsing might ultimately lead to a need to monitor potassium, although I've not seen anyone examine this issue close enough to have any actual data.

I discuss the rinsing idea and potassium here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

from it:

Rinsing Foods and the Effect on Phosphate
Now that we have some information on the phosphate in foods, we can critically examine the concern that many aquarists have about foods, and specifically their rinsing of frozen foods before use. A typical test you see is someone taking a cube of fish food, thawing it, and putting it into a half cup of water. They then test that water for phosphate and find it "off the charts". Let's assume that means 1 ppm phosphate, which would give a very dark blue color in many phosphate tests. Bear in mind this is a thought problem, not an actual measured value, but it is typical of what people think the answer is.

Is that a lot of phosphate? Well, there are two ways to think of the answer.

The first way is as a portion of the total phosphate in that food. A half cup of water at 1 ppm (1 mg/L) phosphate contains a total of 0.12 mg of phosphate. A cube of Formula 2 contains about 11.2 mg of phosphate. So the hypothetical rinsing step has removed about 1 percent of the phosphate in that food. Not really worthwhile, in my opinion, but that decision is one every aquarist can make for themselves.

The second way to look at this rinsing is with respect to how much it reduces the boost to the aquarium phosphate concentration. Using the same calculation as above of 0.12 mg of phosphate, and adding that to 100 gallons total water volume, we find that phosphate that was rinsed away would have boosted the "in tank" phosphate concentration by 0.12 mg/379 L = 0.0003 ppm. That amount washed away does not seem significant with respect to the "in tank" target level of about 50-100 times that level (say, 0.015 to 0.03 ppm), nor does it seem significant relative to the total amount of phosphate actually added each day in foods (which is perhaps 50-1000 times as much, based on input rates from Table 4. Again, the conclusion I make is that rinsing is not really worthwhile, in my opinion.

 

[-Logzor]

OK, let us know what you find, but in general, I do not think that rinsing of most foods will significantly alter the amount of phosphate added since there is just so much in the food and not that much that is washed away as free phosphate (although it certain may depend on the food used).

I'd also mention a concern with rising foods is washing away potassium, at least from frozen foods where cell membranes have been partly broken from freezing and potassium is not held by anything other than the cell membrane. Such rinsing might ultimately lead to a need to monitor potassium, although I've not seen anyone examine this issue close enough to have any actual data.

I discuss the rinsing idea and potassium here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

from it:

Rinsing Foods and the Effect on Phosphate
Now that we have some information on the phosphate in foods, we can critically examine the concern that many aquarists have about foods, and specifically their rinsing of frozen foods before use. A typical test you see is someone taking a cube of fish food, thawing it, and putting it into a half cup of water. They then test that water for phosphate and find it "off the charts". Let's assume that means 1 ppm phosphate, which would give a very dark blue color in many phosphate tests. Bear in mind this is a thought problem, not an actual measured value, but it is typical of what people think the answer is.

Is that a lot of phosphate? Well, there are two ways to think of the answer.

The first way is as a portion of the total phosphate in that food. A half cup of water at 1 ppm (1 mg/L) phosphate contains a total of 0.12 mg of phosphate. A cube of Formula 2 contains about 11.2 mg of phosphate. So the hypothetical rinsing step has removed about 1 percent of the phosphate in that food. Not really worthwhile, in my opinion, but that decision is one every aquarist can make for themselves.

The second way to look at this rinsing is with respect to how much it reduces the boost to the aquarium phosphate concentration. Using the same calculation as above of 0.12 mg of phosphate, and adding that to 100 gallons total water volume, we find that phosphate that was rinsed away would have boosted the "in tank" phosphate concentration by 0.12 mg/379 L = 0.0003 ppm. That amount washed away does not seem significant with respect to the "in tank" target level of about 50-100 times that level (say, 0.015 to 0.03 ppm), nor does it seem significant relative to the total amount of phosphate actually added each day in foods (which is perhaps 50-1000 times as much, based on input rates from Table 4. Again, the conclusion I make is that rinsing is not really worthwhile, in my opinion.

I always rinse my frozen food. I'll typically scoop up some water from the sump and drop in two cubes of frozen mysis or krill pacifica. I have a small strainer (borrowed from the kitchen now dedicated permanently to the aquarium) so I can easily drain the food and drop it right into the aquarium during feeding time. In the strained water, there is a lot of gunk leftover that my fish simply can't eat, the water is cloudy. I don't see how that has a negligible impact after months of daily feeding.

It seems to me, the fish can eat the large pieces of food, but that liquefied crap that's leftover is probably absorbed immediately by opportunistic cyano and filamentous algae.

Removing some small amount of water during this process also helps to deal with the accumulation of salts from two-part dosing. Two birds with one stone!

 

[jason2459]

I find corals like that liquefied crap and has some good fats. Any algae growth in my tank is welcome to help feed my fish. Otherwise it stays growing in my ATS.

 

[-Logzor]

I find corals like that liquefied crap and has some good fats. Any algae growth in my tank is welcome to help feed my fish. Otherwise it stays growing in my ATS.

Makes sense, but that strategy certainly wouldn't work for the OP. I don't see those chromis chowing down on the turf algae anytime soon.

 

[jason2459]

Makes sense, but that strategy certainly wouldn't work for the OP.

Also, depends on what kinds of frozen being fed and what would be washed away if it would attribute to much if any phosphates. I find PE Mysis very oily, LRS very oily and lots of very small bits, Hikari Mysis cubes fairly clean, etc

 

[-Logzor]

Also, depends on what kinds of frozen being fed and what would be washed away if it would attribute to much if any phosphates. I find PE Mysis very oily, LRS very oily and lots of very small bits, Hikari Mysis cubes fairly clean, etc

I agree, there is a lot more to it than perhaps a single study might indicate. I think if you have algae or other negative issues, strain, but otherwise no problems, just dump them in. I stopped dumping straight in after I got cyano on the bottom glass.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Be sure to get Reef Energy, it really makes the difference.
I too experienced a bout with stn until I started timely, daily, supplementation. (and it offsets the imbalance seen with carbon dosing to favor nitrates vs po4)

I really think there needs to be more emphasis on 'nopox AND RE' vs 'use nopox!'
Though people see rtn/stn all the time with any kind of carbon dosing if they're not feeding enough. But you want to introduce more nitrates than phosphates to keep the balance. Some use amino's since they lack phosphate, but RE adds some other viable sources to alleviate things going south.

I did try nutricell for awhile with nopox, because it adds very minute amounts of phosphate per dose, but it didn't even come close to the growth and color I saw from adding RE via dosing pumps. (they do just fine in smaller containers for about a week, otherwise the larger jugs need to be in the fridge)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

. I stopped dumping straight in after I got cyano on the bottom glass.

FWIW, that may have nothing to do with N or P, and everything to do with dissolved organics.

Also, oils won't be contributing very much N and P since they are generally triglycerides.

 

[cvicente]

OK, let us know what you find, but in general, I do not think that rinsing of most foods will significantly alter the amount of phosphate added since there is just so much in the food and not that much that is washed away as free phosphate (although it certain may depend on the food used).

I'd also mention a concern with rising foods is washing away potassium, at least from frozen foods where cell membranes have been partly broken from freezing and potassium is not held by anything other than the cell membrane. Such rinsing might ultimately lead to a need to monitor potassium, although I've not seen anyone examine this issue close enough to have any actual data.

I discuss the rinsing idea and potassium here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

from it:

Rinsing Foods and the Effect on Phosphate
Now that we have some information on the phosphate in foods, we can critically examine the concern that many aquarists have about foods, and specifically their rinsing of frozen foods before use. A typical test you see is someone taking a cube of fish food, thawing it, and putting it into a half cup of water. They then test that water for phosphate and find it "off the charts". Let's assume that means 1 ppm phosphate, which would give a very dark blue color in many phosphate tests. Bear in mind this is a thought problem, not an actual measured value, but it is typical of what people think the answer is.

Is that a lot of phosphate? Well, there are two ways to think of the answer.

The first way is as a portion of the total phosphate in that food. A half cup of water at 1 ppm (1 mg/L) phosphate contains a total of 0.12 mg of phosphate. A cube of Formula 2 contains about 11.2 mg of phosphate. So the hypothetical rinsing step has removed about 1 percent of the phosphate in that food. Not really worthwhile, in my opinion, but that decision is one every aquarist can make for themselves.

The second way to look at this rinsing is with respect to how much it reduces the boost to the aquarium phosphate concentration. Using the same calculation as above of 0.12 mg of phosphate, and adding that to 100 gallons total water volume, we find that phosphate that was rinsed away would have boosted the "in tank" phosphate concentration by 0.12 mg/379 L = 0.0003 ppm. That amount washed away does not seem significant with respect to the "in tank" target level of about 50-100 times that level (say, 0.015 to 0.03 ppm), nor does it seem significant relative to the total amount of phosphate actually added each day in foods (which is perhaps 50-1000 times as much, based on input rates from Table 4. Again, the conclusion I make is that rinsing is not really worthwhile, in my opinion.

Randy you are talking about potassium or phosphate ?

 

[jason2459]

I agree, there is a lot more to it than perhaps a single study might indicate. I think if you have algae or other negative issues, strain, but otherwise no problems, just dump them in. I stopped dumping straight in after I got cyano on the bottom glass.

The fact still remains the majority of the phosphates from food are the food itself that's consumed and then excreted and not what's washed away.