Reef Hobby going down the drain

[Txplicit]

I'm sorry. I disagree with almost everything you said. Yes, the hobby us more expensive, but what hasn't in the last decade? Yes there is a misinformation, but in the information age, you can easily cross reference multi platforms and sources to derive your own basis. What hobby isn't about listing your success and mistakes that you perceive as "terrible takes And bad info"?

On the contrary, the changes and technology advancements in this hobby have made good changes. Yea there are money grabbers out to promote their cash cow. However, to wave a stick at a whole hobby of enthusiasts and supporters because the change isn't what you envisioned is not only irresponsible, but it is narrow sighted and contributes nothing helpful to a dynamic hobby full of changes, progression, and advancements.

For instance, no one can say the technology and knowledge we have TODAY, doesn't advance our hobby further in comparison to what we knew and had in the early 90's. That would completely discredit guys like brs, tidal gardens, and even r2r... so I apologize for your disappointment, but please don't project it on a whole community.

 

[Thales]

I am pretty sure we had very very similar discussions when 'minireefs' became a thing.

The thing I would really love to figure a way for the hobby* to stop doing - reinventing the wheel every 5-7 years. I prefer to stand on the shoulders of giants rather than making pretty much the same giant again from scratch.


*We often talk about "the hobby" as if it is a controllable thing. It isn't. It isn't a single thing, it is a lot of different communities with little cross pollination. There is no central body that we can look to for general best practices, lobbying, or direction regarding animal sourcing. If we could figure out how to do that, we would really have something worthwhile and useful, IMO.

 

[jtl]

I have been in and out of the hobby since 1985 when I started with a FOWOLR. Back then raising corals was not an option. On a relative basis the hobby was no more or less expensive than it is now but equipment and lighting was more limited. I started with an under gravel filter and later advanced to a sump with bio balls. Lighting was simple and the fish didn't care. Tank maintenance was easy not having any corals to deal with. I actually really liked the colors of my aggressive fish tank (clown trigger, lion fish, puffer, blue tang, picasso trigger to name a few. I try to keep things as simple as possible and look for value but even so it is not cheap. My last tank was 100g and the hardware cost was at least $4000 and I did not have a controller or expensive lights but it still adds up fast. The live stock was another $3000. When I sold everything last summer I lost about 50% of my original cost, notice I did not say investment because reefing is not an investment. There are so many "must haves" in this hobby that are really not necessary for a successful tank. I read a lot of comments that make me think there are too many additives that cause more harm than good. There is also a lot of questionable if not completely bogus advice that gets people chasing problems that don't exist leading to issues that will be problems. There are some vary savvy people on this site and I tried to only take advice from them. I think for the most part the hobby is healthy but probably not growing exponentially. The only reason I left the hobby this time is boredom, once my tank was up for a few years and growing out it became drudgery to clean it and I like a pristine tank since it was a focal point in our modern/contemporary designed home. I guess I realized my passion was designing and building a functional system. I obviously still visit the forum and occasionally post if I think I can help someone but only if I can say I have direct hands on experience.

 

[Doctorgori]

Some trends in the hobby come from so called respected "influencers" ...I've witnessed this since the Newsgroup days of the late 80's...lots of name dropping from those who sort of troll the internet in "cyber clicks" of techies in satellite orbit around certain so called influencer experts .... Nowadays YouTube takes this to a whole new level...

Same thing happens with products; often shilled on the forums by "back door sponsorship" of over priced products ...recommendations are cool and necessary but free trial offers to "influencers" makes me wonder about bribed product bias..... What is the ratio of bad reviews vs good from these YouTube influencers and how long will the free products flow?

...and then there is product demand and manufacturing scale; American made "niche products" simply cost more; we have copyright laws; we can still breathe here without mask, and we don't turn our endangered wildlife into "traditional medicines"...in short we have regulations which add to cost especially for low volume niche hobby products... go on Amazon and you will see 20 duplicate products sold by 20 manufacturers

 

[ahiggins]

Wow, lots of negativity in this thread...

Personally, I’ve always used R2R as a tool, not the all giving “God particle”.
I use other websites and knowledge from others as well. We have all been wrong on a topic but this site helped me start up 10 years ago when I was just researching everything I could find. It’s an amazing resource for everyone at any stage of the hobby. Plus, very few people that I come across here are jerks or judge you/your tank/your mistakes.

 

[Jase4224]

The reefing hobby is in a bad position. Niche hobby that has gotten even more expensive. Black Friday sales were trash this year. Hobby keeps burning new people with bad info and marketing. Haven’t been on this site for a while and came back recently to trash. Forums are polluted with terrible takes and bad info only to be followed by bias info from homers of products who consider themselves “influencers”. Man, I feel bad for the new people that actually want to join this hobby and are misguided by the internet.

I’ve found a handful of YouTube channels that are a great source of quality info and experience, to name my favourites..
BRS
Parkersreef
Dutchreefer
Galleryaquatica
Fishofhex
Reefbuilders
Tidal Gardens

I’ve been given some good advice on this forum too but have noticed that as you stated, very often the basic questions are never asked. People trying to diagnose problems without knowing any info on the OP’s system.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

I started my first reef in September of 1990. Before the first reef, I kept freshwater for a number of years. So I have a fairly good handle on the history of the relative expense of equipment and livestock.

The idea that that the hobby has gotten drastically more expensive is largely incorrect. In fact, because of chinese manufacturing, a basic setup is considerably cheaper than it was in the 1990s. And the livestock isn't more expensive, either. The exception is aquacultured corals with comic-book names, but that's a fairly small exception. From the standpoint of the fish, they're actually considerably cheaper than they were in the 1990's, especially if you factor in that a lot of the saltwater fish in the early to mid 1990's were improperly handled and often captured with cyanide.

I suspect that a lot of the whining about the expense of the hobby has to do with the combination of sticker shock (from people unfamiliar with the hobby that are just getting in) and the fact that it is possible to put together a tank that is far more bulletproof and with a considerably more certain outcome than in days past if one cares to buy and use the equipment.

Just the same as in the 1990's, one can set up a 40g breeder from Petco, add a 6-bulb T-5 fixture, install a couple of inexpensive circulation pumps, and that's it. Such a tank will keep a wide variety of reef animals, including corals. However, with such a tank you're trading risk and work for low expenditure. Specifically, you will need to substitute water changes for the lack of a skimmer and 2-part dosing, and you will be "flying blind" without test kits for the basic parameters of Ca, Alk, NO3 and PO4. Such a tank will run around $1k-$2k including the equipment, rock and some fish and corals.

OTOH, you can set up the same tank (except a 40g rimless version), add a sump, DC skimmer, LED lighting, programmable DC circulation pumps, return pump, 2-part doser, controller, automated filter fleece, automated water changer, a suite of water chemistry tests, and a 6-stage RODI system, and the bill will run around $8k - $12k. This sort of tank is trading $$$ for appearance (the rimless tank/stand and controllable LED lighting), a lot of convenience, and to some extent, more certainty of outcome.

In other words, yes, there's a floor of expenditure below which you'll have a hard time setting up a tank, but that's a fairly low floor. And if you choose, you can multiply that expenditure by a factor of 6X - 10X for a lot of equipment that makes keeping the tank less work and more streamlined/integrated from the appearance point of view.

It's a choice, and when I'm giving advice to absolute newbs, I mention this same comparison, and advise them not to get into it if they're unwilling to spend the $$$ that the absolute basics cost, and I also advise them not to spend the $$$ for everything they can possibly put on a tank until the gain the knowledge to properly use it.

 

[Thales]

I started my first reef in September of 1990. Before the first reef, I kept freshwater for a number of years. So I have a fairly good handle on the history of the relative expense of equipment and livestock.

The idea that that the hobby has gotten drastically more expensive is largely incorrect. In fact, because of chinese manufacturing, a basic setup is considerably cheaper than it was in the 1990s. And the livestock isn't more expensive, either. The exception is aquacultured corals with comic-book names, but that's a fairly small exception. From the standpoint of the fish, they're actually considerably cheaper than they were in the 1990's, especially if you factor in that a lot of the saltwater fish in the early to mid 1990's were improperly handled and often captured with cyanide.

I suspect that a lot of the whining about the expense of the hobby has to do with the combination of sticker shock (from people unfamiliar with the hobby that are just getting in) and the fact that it is possible to put together a tank that is far more bulletproof and with a considerably more certain outcome than in days past if one cares to buy and use the equipment.

Just the same as in the 1990's, one can set up a 40g breeder from Petco, add a 6-bulb T-5 fixture, install a couple of inexpensive circulation pumps, and that's it. Such a tank will keep a wide variety of reef animals, including corals. However, with such a tank you're trading risk and work for low expenditure. Specifically, you will need to substitute water changes for the lack of a skimmer and 2-part dosing, and you will be "flying blind" without test kits for the basic parameters of Ca, Alk, NO3 and PO4. Such a tank will run around $1k-$2k including the equipment, rock and some fish and corals.

OTOH, you can set up the same tank (except a 40g rimless version), add a sump, DC skimmer, LED lighting, programmable DC circulation pumps, return pump, 2-part doser, controller, automated filter fleece, automated water changer, a suite of water chemistry tests, and a 6-stage RODI system, and the bill will run around $8k - $12k. This sort of tank is trading $$$ for appearance (the rimless tank/stand and controllable LED lighting), a lot of convenience, and to some extent, more certainty of outcome.

In other words, yes, there's a floor of expenditure below which you'll have a hard time setting up a tank, but that's a fairly low floor. And if you choose, you can multiply that expenditure by a factor of 6X - 10X for a lot of equipment that makes keeping the tank less work and more streamlined/integrated from the appearance point of view.

It's a choice, and when I'm giving advice to absolute newbs, I mention this same comparison, and advise them not to get into it if they're unwilling to spend the $$$ that the absolute basics cost, and I also advise them not to spend the $$$ for everything they can possibly put on a tank until the gain the knowledge to properly use it.

This all day long.

 

[Flippers4pups]

I started my first reef in September of 1990. Before the first reef, I kept freshwater for a number of years. So I have a fairly good handle on the history of the relative expense of equipment and livestock.

The idea that that the hobby has gotten drastically more expensive is largely incorrect. In fact, because of chinese manufacturing, a basic setup is considerably cheaper than it was in the 1990s. And the livestock isn't more expensive, either. The exception is aquacultured corals with comic-book names, but that's a fairly small exception. From the standpoint of the fish, they're actually considerably cheaper than they were in the 1990's, especially if you factor in that a lot of the saltwater fish in the early to mid 1990's were improperly handled and often captured with cyanide.

I suspect that a lot of the whining about the expense of the hobby has to do with the combination of sticker shock (from people unfamiliar with the hobby that are just getting in) and the fact that it is possible to put together a tank that is far more bulletproof and with a considerably more certain outcome than in days past if one cares to buy and use the equipment.

Just the same as in the 1990's, one can set up a 40g breeder from Petco, add a 6-bulb T-5 fixture, install a couple of inexpensive circulation pumps, and that's it. Such a tank will keep a wide variety of reef animals, including corals. However, with such a tank you're trading risk and work for low expenditure. Specifically, you will need to substitute water changes for the lack of a skimmer and 2-part dosing, and you will be "flying blind" without test kits for the basic parameters of Ca, Alk, NO3 and PO4. Such a tank will run around $1k-$2k including the equipment, rock and some fish and corals.

OTOH, you can set up the same tank (except a 40g rimless version), add a sump, DC skimmer, LED lighting, programmable DC circulation pumps, return pump, 2-part doser, controller, automated filter fleece, automated water changer, a suite of water chemistry tests, and a 6-stage RODI system, and the bill will run around $8k - $12k. This sort of tank is trading $$$ for appearance (the rimless tank/stand and controllable LED lighting), a lot of convenience, and to some extent, more certainty of outcome.

In other words, yes, there's a floor of expenditure below which you'll have a hard time setting up a tank, but that's a fairly low floor. And if you choose, you can multiply that expenditure by a factor of 6X - 10X for a lot of equipment that makes keeping the tank less work and more streamlined/integrated from the appearance point of view.

It's a choice, and when I'm giving advice to absolute newbs, I mention this same comparison, and advise them not to get into it if they're unwilling to spend the $$$ that the absolute basics cost, and I also advise them not to spend the $$$ for everything they can possibly put on a tank until the gain the knowledge to properly use it.

Agreed. So much of what is presented by the "YouTube" influencers are what new hobbyist see and think they need to follow. I've personally seen them come on here and be very upset because they spent a ton of money on their setup and their corals are dead or dieing. Trying to help them understand the basics needed becomes a back door process and they often get even more upset because they got the impression from what they saw as gospel. Sometimes it's "I'm done" or "selling it all" because they didn't get the basics down first. Quite a few have never owned a aquarium before or took what a LFS told them and followed bad advise because they see dollars in the sale.

Happens way more now than back in the nineties because of all of this.

 

[armyguy82]

Yes the hobby is expenesive but like many people mentioned already it doesnt have to be. Ive been in the freshwater side for over 15 years and just hit a year on the saltwater side of things. When I first started there was a lot of infomrtion out there. I reserched as much as I could in the beginning before my head started to hurt. R2R was actually a good start to see what prodcuts were actually worth buying. I learned the most by just setting up my tank and seeing what works for me. You have to undersatand the prices we have now are influenced off of supply and demand. Ive had many hobbies in the past and hoenstly this one isnt that expensive compared to my other hobbies like cars and motorcycles.

 

[jda]

I think that a lot of things are significantly cheaper than when I got into the hobby in 1992. The difference is that people are making expensive CHOICES. Nobody NEEDS a controller, DC pump or newest model lights, but people act like they are necessary of the world will stop turning and nothing will live. A Salifert alk test kit is like $12 and will last a year, or more, but some people act like you cannot do without a Trident. With some patience (this is most of the issue), you can find real live rock for $2 a pound if you live near a larger area, cheap used tanks and lights and even some cheap livestock. If you choose to want it all when you want it, then it gets expensive.

Our local club did a build contest with a $1000 budget and there are some nice tanks. My entry is linked in my signature. It will be beautiful in a year and will be under that $1000 mark. Buy quality, do not kill livestock and be patient and get used stuff. I bought reefing equipment and not tech. The only thing that I cannot reconcile is that I know enough to not buy certain things that a noobie would not know.

As for the bad advice, this is what you get when everybody has an equal voice. I have been crushed on here for asking people what their experience level is or for pointing out that they might have a different opinion when they have some actual coral instead of just reading about coral... this comes with the paradigm of "everybody gets a trophy" and that their opinion is just as valuable as somebody who has decades of experience and has solved this same problem many times. There should be a forum where anybody can answer a question, but only select few can answer it.... like the old Wet Web Media.

 

[jda]

Also, if you want to keep this hobby from going down the drain, then find a way to get the truly exceptional reefers back online helping people. I get why most of them disappear since they don't want to argue with some thumb-sucker whose corals have not even encrusted the frag plugs, but there has got to be a way to get the great knowledge out of them while keeping them isolated from the shills, confirmation biased and means-well-but-know-nothing crowds. Seems like all of the real knowledge is now on private boards and groups.

 

[brandon429]

even seasoned reefers argue and do not agree on basic practices but we mean well. that's why they stay even when challenged. any good science can stand some scrutiny and carving up. whatever emerges in work threads is the going scene of the day is how I think it works but for sure years under belt doesn't mean two seasoned reefers would advise the same actions, they'd diverge eventually or possibly right at the start. that push and pull evolves us though and we get to track the outcomes in threads

In that hashing/exchange we find cheaper ways to do things, we eliminate inefficient ways of doing things, this is driving the hobby up via accountability.

side note: everyone go check my picture updates on page 3 lol I added some movie stills of the fish in question that Humblefish's friend cared for

 

[Phildago]

I don't know what the hobby used to be like... but I would imagine it was much more niche than it is now. Technology and access to knowledge would certainly open the possibility for a broad spectrum of people to keep an at home reef.

My father was in the marine aquarium hobby for over 20 years and all he ever said about keeping a reef was that its nearly impossible. Starting from scratch, I found it difficult, but certainly not impossible.

While the reefing hobby may be more inviting in recent times than the past, it's still an extreme niche for aquarium hobbyists. Regardless of my ignorance about what the old school reef keeping hobby was like the community today is still leaps and bounds beyond nearly any other husbandry hobby that I've come across. Comparatively the fresh water aquarium hobby is a bunch of voodoo and hand waving where people blame tank crashes on replacing the bag of carbon that was in there for 17 years.

So, the hobby is what it is, but it's still better than most of the other stuff out there. It's possible that technology and access to information has cheapened pretty much everything we love. It seems like people everywhere are making these complaints more and more often.

 

[chefjpaul]

I think that a lot of things are significantly cheaper than when I got into the hobby in 1992. The difference is that people are making expensive CHOICES. Nobody NEEDS a controller, DC pump or newest model lights, but people act like they are necessary of the world will stop turning and nothing will live. A Salifert alk test kit is like $12 and will last a year, or more, but some people act like you cannot do without a Trident. With some patience (this is most of the issue), you can find real live rock for $2 a pound if you live near a larger area, cheap used tanks and lights and even some cheap livestock. If you choose to want it all when you want it, then it gets expensive.

Our local club did a build contest with a $1000 budget and there are some nice tanks. My entry is linked in my signature. It will be beautiful in a year and will be under that $1000 mark. Buy quality, do not kill livestock and be patient and get used stuff. I bought reefing equipment and not tech. The only thing that I cannot reconcile is that I know enough to not buy certain things that a noobie would not know.

As for the bad advice, this is what you get when everybody has an equal voice. I have been crushed on here for asking people what their experience level is or for pointing out that they might have a different opinion when they have some actual coral instead of just reading about coral... this comes with the paradigm of "everybody gets a trophy" and that their opinion is just as valuable as somebody who has decades of experience and has solved this same problem many times. There should be a forum where anybody can answer a question, but only select few can answer it.... like the old Wet Web Media.

True.

Many of us didn't have a budget, technology nor patience when starting. I didn't, didn't have a decent salary, (not including the FW tanks growing up), knowledge except magazine and books, or the advanced internet of information. I had 2nd & 3rd party used equipment and an ego. Now I am more patience yet still know nothing! , but I do have a great salary and "can" afford gadgets. (Because I can, but doesn't mean I always do).

We adapt, learn, grow, (together as hobbyists). I would never "go against" someone with your experience regarding SPS, I watch and learn, as I favor LPS.... for an example.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the amount of information now, it's does come down to how either we, as information passers, relate and approach the subjects, but also how people intake the info.
When advice is given by those without firsthand experience in a particular subject, it gets hard to distinguish. I personally don't get involved in a lot of subjects just because of the mass info given without proper info from an op and rhetoric involved.

Maybe more distinguished banners based on________ ? could help?

Either way, it's still working great and positive direction for all the negativity there.

 

[Heathd]

I have no beef with the forum. Lots of great info here and helpful people.

I do feel the hobby related manufacturers and suppliers have consolidated considerably over the past years which hurts pricing for the hobbyist, MAP pricing protects underwhelming products, and the Indonesian ban was a real kick to the pants.

Its not all bad news, though. The hobby appears to be moving away from methods based on anecdotal evidence....BRS has had a lot do with that IMO. Maybe the improved methods and information can help keep the increasingly expensive corals alive.

My biggest gripe with the hobby is how it seems like you ain't crap if you dont have 700$ light fixtures, $400 pumps, and an Apex.

Just my opinion.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I disagree with the take on R2R. Tons of great info here from countless good reefers

I’m almost to year 30 of reefing, and have been fortunate enough to make a living for most of that managing reef aquariums. Even with that experience and understanding in my back pocket, I learn at least 4 new and, more importantly, valuable things every time I visit R2R. It’s at the point now where I make sure I have a notebook handy so I can write the stuff down.

The biggest problem is that in the internet age, people are too quick to just find the easiest solution to their problem rather than figuring things out on their own.

While that is fine when it comes to things like changing windshield wiper blades, it doesn’t always work when dealing in something with as many intertwined factors as reef ecology. The quick ‘fix’ might not work in the grand scheme of managing the system. A lot of people aren’t spending the time to truly understand their systems, particularly cause-and-effect relationships and understanding how an organism or an ecosystem responds to changes.

More time needs to be spent reading the system, and less time spent reading the internet.

That said, the community here is outstanding because it affords reefers the ability to sit courtside and observe others as they work through and resolve issues.

 

[Flippers4pups]

"expert" banners might be taken a lot of different ways. Might be taken in a good way or bad. How does one quantify this?

I disagree with the take on R2R. Tons of great info here from countless good reefers

I’m almost to year 30 of reefing, and have been fortunate enough to make a living for most of that managing reef aquariums. Even with that experience and understanding in my back pocket, I learn at least 4 new and, more importantly, valuable things every time I visit R2R. It’s at the point now where I make sure I have a notebook handy so I can write the stuff down.

The biggest problem is that in the internet age, people are too quick to just find the easiest solution to their problem rather than figuring things out on their own.

While that is fine when it comes to things like changing windshield wiper blades, it doesn’t always work when dealing in something with as many intertwined factors as reef ecology. The quick ‘fix’ might not work in the grand scheme of managing the system. A lot of people aren’t spending the time to truly understand their systems, particularly cause-and-effect relationships and understanding how an organism or an ecosystem responds to changes.

More time needs to be spent reading the system, and less time spent reading the internet.

That said, the community here is outstanding because it affords reefers the ability to sit courtside and observe others as they work through and resolve issues.

Being impatient is a big issue these days. I liken keeping a coral reef tank like terrestrial gardening. Being knowledgeable about your soil, seeds, pests, knowing it will take time to grow, watering schedules, fertilizer, weed management......etc.

We are coral gardeners. You have to look at it understand what's needed and how to respond. That always comes from experience, but you must have the basics down first.

 

[jason17star]

As long as people still find a way to enjoy the hobby, i think you can find deals on facebook or craiglist.