Reefers Moonshine Method - Let's discuss

[Reefahholic]

Andre's additives are actually super cheap compared to others. $20 for 500ml is 1/5 the cost of ATI and Triton. Andre will even tell you the concentration. Triton still doesn't do that. Kind of shady IMO.

Agreed. Big bottles. Cheap. Clarity.

 

[rtparty]

We had a guy who thought for sure that water changes would fix every trace element. What he didn’t understand is that the program is based on elevated elements and a water change will never get you there.

Simple math tells us water changes don't replenish elements unless you are doing massive changes. Once I realized what water changes do and don't do is the day I stopped doing them routinely.

 

[Reefahholic]

People are putting a lot of trust in their salt mix. Talk about dosing to target. How do we we actually know what's really in those salt mixes? By what they tell us, what we read on the bag?
Thanks but I'll drink my Moonshine.

I always see reefers saying…I’m running a CaRx and dosing ABC or whatever and my tank is awesome! I don’t need to do an ICP or anything else.

That is true…you don’t!

BUT…if they had any idea of all the ICP’s that keep coming in and the feedback we’re getting from the group about their exact supplementation, methods, etc. I feel like I want to sit at the PC sometimes with a bucket of popcorn and wait on the next one to come in so I can hear all the details.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that there’s some MAJOR HOLES in their game and they don’t have a clue and I’m not saying that in a rude way…it’s the truth.

There almost always seems to be a low or depleted element or contaminate. Guess what happens if one or all of these are the case. Growth is slowing down or Acro’s are sitting there doing NOTHING.

 

[Reefahholic]

Great points. It strikes me that there are aspects which are reasonably well studied and understood. And in some cases there are actually industrial applications. It in others - I’m particularly speaking to biology and the actual demand for trace elements - I don’t think we have a clear understanding and thus are simply attempting to simulate NSW. When thinking about it this way, we DO need to rely on anecdotal observation and thus Andre’s spreadsheet of knowledge plus an active community is useful.

The community in itself is amazing to receive all the feedback.

It’s exactly what Eshan is doing. He’s learning from You!

We’re learning from each other.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The truth is we can go back and forth for 50 more pages debating every little thing about the RM method and if it is "good enough" or a "waste of money" or if it is "too mad scientist" or whatever other excuses are out there.

None of that is even relevant for those of us THAT ACTUALLY USE the RM method. Find me all the negative comments and people that had such poor results they quit using the method....I will wait...

Again, I have nothing against this method as long as it is sensibly described, but your example is not really very convincing that this method "is best" since it sounds like you skipped from no dosing of any trace elements, to dosing of many or all of them.

No intervening comparator to dosing of any ordinary brand of simple drops per day supplement. Many folks do that quite successfully too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Simple math tells us water changes don't replenish elements unless you are doing massive changes. Once I realized what water changes do and don't do is the day I stopped doing them routinely.

I don't recommend water changes for that purpose, but they have other purposes, such as exporting accumulating organics and other chemicals.

IMO, foods add far more trace elements than do water changes.

 

[Chris Spaulding]

I have been running the Shine for about 8 moths now. What I like is you can adjust it for how you reef. 2 part , 3 part ,( AFR ) Calcium reactor ( what I use ). Its is adaptable too many different stiles. The support on the Facebook community is great and as said Andre is constantly on there answering questions. Even if RM is not for you I would suggest reading the FREE handbook and IMO the Color guide. It gave me a much better understanding of what when and why for over all reef keeping. With the SHINE I am no longer afraid of placing high end finicky SPS corals in my tank.
The RM community is about helping out each other and getting the best out of our tanks.

 

[Scdell]

I always see reefers saying…I’m running a CaRx and dosing ABC or whatever and my tank is awesome! I don’t need to do an ICP or anything else.

That is true…you don’t!

BUT…if they had any idea of all the ICP’s that keep coming in and the feedback we’re getting from the group about their exact supplementation, methods, etc. I feel like I want to sit at the PC sometimes with a bucket of popcorn and wait on the next one to come in so I can hear all the details.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that there’s some MAJOR HOLES in their game and they don’t have a clue and I’m not saying that in a rude way…it’s the truth.

There almost always seems to be a low or depleted element or contaminate. Guess what happens if one or all of these are the case. Growth is slowing down or Acro’s are sitting there doing NOTHING.

I don't dose anything except what the Moonshine says. No Red Sea, no Acropower, nothing. I was dosing all that with no good results. Wasting money. Then I see the people complaining about a $50 ICP test and spend 1k on one coral. Doesn't make much sense to me. But what do I know?

I still do water changes bi monthly because I've had high Vanadium which i attribute to starting my tank with black sand. Those #'s are coming down to almost the right levels. Then I may try the no water change thing.

 

[Scdell]

Again, I have nothing against this method as long as it is sensibly described, but your example is not really very convincing that this method "is best" since it sounds like you skipped from no dosing of any trace elements, to dosing of many or all of them.

No intervening comparator to dosing of any ordinary brand of simple drops per day supplement. Many folks do that quite successfully too.

No one here is saying it's the "best" method. They are saying it's the best method for them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy, when do you suspect these ICP analysis will make it to the next level and be able to detect down to the values needed to really zero in on these elements.

It would be nice if we had more labs in the US with 1 day shipping like Amazon. ;Happy

You literally need a lab at the house to fully understand how quickly these elements are consumed and how much.

I do not know much about upcoming new developments in ICP, but in general, I think it is a cost and time issue, not purely a technical one.

Iron in seawater can be quantified down to at least about 0.01 ug/L; link below). When Triton first came out, they published a detection limit of 0.3 ug/L. I do not know what it is for Triton today, but the 0.01 ug/L is close to even the surface seawater level. But it takes more effort on a single ion and is not a mass testing procedure.

Traceable and accurate quantification of iron in seawater using isotope dilution calibration strategies by triple quadrupole ICP-MS/MS: Characterization measurements of iron in a candidate seawater CRM

Accurate quantification of iron is crucial for the characterization of a candidate seawater certified reference material. Isotope dilution mass spectr…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[minus9]

I have been running the Shine for about 8 moths now. What I like is you can adjust it for how you reef. 2 part , 3 part ,( AFR ) Calcium reactor ( what I use ). Its is adaptable too many different stiles. The support on the Facebook community is great and as said Andre is constantly on there answering questions. Even if RM is not for you I would suggest reading the FREE handbook and IMO the Color guide. It gave me a much better understanding of what when and why for over all reef keeping. With the SHINE I am no longer afraid of placing high end finicky SPS corals in my tank.
The RM community is about helping out each other and getting the best out of our tanks.

Exactly! It's a community of sharing information, that's how we progress in this hobby. Be critical, be skeptical, but do it with the purpose of learning something. When I see those responses that appear out of nowhere with criticism, it's usually from someone new to the hobby or someone who truly doesn't understand how everything works or they simply regurgitate something they've read from someone else who doesn't know what they're talking about. I call them 5 minute reefers. They're in the hobby 5 minutes and they know everything and start giving advise.
Sorry, I don't mean to derail this thread, but some of the previous posts really stand out in this way.

 

[Reefahholic]

How do you know it's enough? Just trusting that moonshine is putting enough in? Organism observation?

For iron and manganese, how's that different than dosing Kent iron and manganese supplement?

It's not different Randy. It's just his personal preference from his experience with different products. I can tell you that most products he uses have been heavily tested and he typically picks a product that is not showing anything weird on ICP. So I guess from a purity standpoint he prefers Brightwell (for non-Moonshine elements) and wherever he sourced his own elements.

 

[Scdell]

Exactly! It's a community of sharing information, that's how we progress in this hobby. Be critical, be skeptical, but do it with the purpose of learning something. When I see those responses that appear out of nowhere with criticism, it's usually from someone new to the hobby or someone who truly doesn't understand how everything works or they simply regurgitate something they've read from someone else who doesn't know what they're talking about. I call them 5 minute reefers. They're in the hobby 5 minutes and they know everything and start giving advise.
Sorry, I don't mean to derail this thread, but some of the previous posts really stand out in this way.

This is how reefing started. Sharing info.
You just described social media to a tee.

 

[Reefahholic]

I do not know much about upcoming new developments in ICP, but in general, I think it is a cost and time issue, not purely a technical one.

Iron in seawater can be quantified down to at least about 0.01 ug/L; link below). When Triton first came out, they published a detection limit of 0.3 ug/L. I do not know what it is for Triton today, but the 0.01 ug/L is close to even the surface seawater level. But it takes more effort on a single ion and is not a mass testing procedure.

Traceable and accurate quantification of iron in seawater using isotope dilution calibration strategies by triple quadrupole ICP-MS/MS: Characterization measurements of iron in a candidate seawater CRM

Accurate quantification of iron is crucial for the characterization of a candidate seawater certified reference material. Isotope dilution mass spectr…

www.sciencedirect.com

I think you hit the nail on the head. It's more of a cost / time issue I believe. They're trying to save money of course by mass testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

No one here is saying it's the "best" method. They are saying it's the best method for them.

I'm not sure there's a distinction, but OK.

 

[Scdell]

I'm not sure there's a distinction, but OK.

Well....... If they are saying it's the best method then they are saying that everyone should be using it and every other method doesn't work.
If they are saying it's the best method for them then they are saying they found what works best for them and their particular circumstances. At least that's the way I see it.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have been running the Shine for about 8 moths now. What I like is you can adjust it for how you reef. 2 part , 3 part ,( AFR ) Calcium reactor ( what I use ). Its is adaptable too many different stiles.

Yes this is true. One thing to keep in mind for those who may start the program is that Andre does recommend Brightwell for most products that “aren’t” a Moonshine element excluding Iodide which is Seachem. The reason for this is because the ICP assessment tool and calculator he developed are made to be compatible with those products if your going to be using them for corrections. So for example, you can use other products, but they will not work with the tools.

The same way If I went over to: https://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

I would need to pick the products I’m using for dosing corrections/calculations. The site has several products to choose from such as ESV, Randy’s 2-part, BRS, etc. You wouldn’t pick ESV if you were using BRS.

The same applies to the Moonshine tools, for “non-Moonshine” elements you’d need to be using Brightwell products or the Seachem Reef Iodide. Otherwise you will be dosing inaccurately! However, you can go use a calculator that supports your specific products.

 

[Reefahholic]

Randy, quick question…did your pH fluctuate on 12/18,19,20???! Check your Apex Graph.

Check this out:

https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/horizontal-winds-become-major-movers-co2-during-cold-fronts/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well....... If they are saying it's the best method then they are saying that everyone should be using it and every other method doesn't work.
If they are saying it's the best method for them then they are saying they found what works best for them and their particular circumstances. At least that's the way I see it.

I'm not going to waste everyone's time arguing semantics with you. There are real issues to discuss. I will just agree to disagree with you on what they meant. Folks claiming "Those of us ACTUALLY using the program, love it." are not entirely correct.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy, quick question…did your pH fluctuate on 12/18,19,20???! Check your Apex Graph.

Check this out:

https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/horizontal-winds-become-major-movers-co2-during-cold-fronts/

Thanks, I had not seen that.

Wind has a huge effect on air turnover in homes. I see it also in radon measurements that I've been taking.

Interestingly, so does the difference between indoor and outdoor temp. A higher temp inside drives more air flow into a home at the bottom and out the top, or the other way around when outside is hot. The result can be a change in pH.