ReefKeeper's Departure Hurts The Industry

[n2585722]

I hated seeing this. The RKL was perfect for my application. Temp control, timer for protein skimmer, and pump pause for feeding. Have three tanks running this way, and now have a temp probe failed. Cannot afford to replace with new system. Sucks for sure.

Did you check on ebay? I think I seen a few for sale there. Adafruit has a sensor that may work It just don't have a long cord or the right connector.

 

[mcarroll]

I have been making my own buss cables for some time now. I get the 6 conductor flat cable at Fry's along with the RJ12 connectors. You just have to make sure you wires don't get twisted and that the connector on one end is flipped from the connector on the other end. It would be a good Idea to check them with a ohmmeter to make sure that they are connected the same as a DA buss cable.

Micro-fit 3.0 at Mouser

https://www.mouser.com/new/molex/mo...0AeD9p3qXBL6UtjbS4LMSqRrISAItBNhoCjVAQAvD_BwE

Thanks for that!

Was there maybe something special about the Y-splitter they chose that you're aware of? Maybe that was the issue.

(The iTemp occupies my last bus slot, so without splitter it's either temperature monitoring or PC connection, but not both. The extension was actually coincidental and I suspect mine was fine.)

 

[n2585722]

Thanks for that!

Was there maybe something special about the Y-splitter they chose that you're aware of? Maybe that was the issue.

(The iTemp occupies my last bus slot, so without splitter it's either temperature monitoring or PC connection, but not both. The extension was actually coincidental and I suspect mine was fine.)

You have to use a straight inline splitter. A phone splitter usually wont work since they flip the connections internally. A hub will work if you can find one for sale. If you have an ohmmeter you can check a splitter to see if it will work. Each pin has to be connected to the same pin on each connector. On a phone it doesn't matter as long as the two inner connectors arein the inner positions and the two outer connectors or in the outer position. On the DA units each wire has to be connected to the same pin on each connector.

 

[mcarroll]

You have to use a straight inline splitter. A phone splitter usually wont work since they flip the connections internally. A hub will work if you can find one for sale. If you have an ohmmeter you can check a splitter to see if it will work. Each pin has to be connected to the same pin on each connector. On a phone it doesn't matter as long as the two inner connectors arein the inner positions and the two outer connectors or in the outer position. On the DA units each wire has to be connected to the same pin on each connector.

I'll have to go back and look at specifics again, but I ordered a splitter that was supposed to be like that. I think I had to learn that there was a OIOIO kind of nomenclature to the splitter outlets.

Now this thread is taking me back.....really the only unsolved "issue" with my unit. Haven't thought about it in some time. If I handle this and fix the iTemp connector I broke the tab off, it'll be a new level of sweet for the RKL. )

 

[PrangeWay]

It is very sad, I actually just setup a new nano tank using an original 2005 Reef Keeper (the blue ones with the old school yellow backlighting). I don't know why some Chinesse company isn't making like 15 dollar copies of it.

The real loss is the competition that keeps prices down, as many may not remember the preDA days when Neptune gouged hard. Hopefully there is enough competition left in the space to keep things manageable.

Luckily I already have an extra apex if prices do start to rise again.

 

[BZOFIQ]

If NewEgg and Google can SELL a product, one would assume... at a profit, that contains a WiFi chipset for a few dollars, then it can't cost all that much to license the technology.

It's a matter of scale. If you're only selling a few units, then licensing is probably a significant cost. Ok, so Google probably sells a HUGE number of devices. Let's look smaller: Adafruit lists a module containing both Wifi AND Bluetooth for $8.95. I'd find it hard to believe that Espressif sells more WiFi/Bluetooth chipsets than Neptune sells Apex units

Even the forum you linked to... $4000? $2500? That doesn't seem prohibitive to me! Obviously, Neptune _has_ the ability to embed WiFi in their devices... they do so with the later revision of the Apex, right? They've already licensed the technology. I'd just like to see a lower end version, a new 'Apex Jr', or however they choose to market it, with on board WiFi.

There are two end to that stick. Not everyone wants a Wi-FI capable controller. I really wanted to look at GHL controller because I dont like which way the APEX is heading and the fact that it has a monopoly but as soon as I saw the box at reefapalooze and realized there is no proper LAN port on the back, I literally told the nice guys at the booth that dropping physical Ethernet port was a GREAT MISTAKE!!!

 

[Sunny Goold]

I hear all the time about the attrition rate and a major reason is tank crashes with the biggest point of failure being due to heaters. At the same time the vast majority of people who get through that initial period upgrade and after that they get a 2nd tank. Having a controller should be essential for every newbie (I get some old schoolers don't like them - that's fine).
So to me Apex's strategy doesn't make sense. If they had a sub $300 upgradeable, wifi connected version of their Jr. (available in 120 and 220v) they would corner the market and heaps of people would use them on their 2nd tanks.
That eKoral seem to have brought out a more user friendly controller that is comparable to Apex in most key measures (and is available in 220v) to me says Neptunes is no where near where they should be. That Neptunes can't bring out a new powerbar for EU says to me they are struggling.
Conversely eKoral have done a great job but they'd completely change the game if they had something under $300. I know they must be pricing as cheap as they can and they are delivering (when Neptunes and Vertex aren't).

That said I only really need temp and pH plus a few outlets to start with.

Also exciting is @Seneye-CEO is coming out with the Coral for what I think will be $200 plus $10/mth for the slides. With temp, pH, Alk and Ammonia. Plus they have PAR all in the one product. This is awesome and they have leak detectors coming too.

Sure it's just monitoring and they have this expensive module to connect it to the net. All they need to do is sell a $50 net connection module and $50 controllable outlets. If they did that I don't think many people would consider Apex. For me it would be the bomb.

I'm super stoked eKoral has come in. If I have the money I will probably use a combination of them and the Seneye and get rid of the Apex controller I have. Still I would hesitate because together they add up to over $1,000 and most of what you are paying for is doubled up (like online connection). If Seneye and @eKoProCS make it so they could connect then the eKoral would become everyone's first choice controller and the majority would upgrade to the Seneye within the first year.

I wish there was one affordable solution that covered the core things I feel are the most important to control / understand about your reef tank whilst you are not there checking it = temp control, Alk and pH. The other things I can set and leave (like lights) or I can test when I am at home (salinity, Ca, Mg etc.)

But put it another way - how many new reefers would fail if they were on top of those things?

 

[mcarroll]

If NewEgg and Google can SELL a product, one would assume... at a profit, that contains a WiFi chipset for a few dollars, then it can't cost all that much to license the technology.

It's a matter of scale. If you're only selling a few units, then licensing is probably a significant cost. Ok, so Google probably sells a HUGE number of devices. Let's look smaller: Adafruit lists a module containing both Wifi AND Bluetooth for $8.95. I'd find it hard to believe that Espressif sells more WiFi/Bluetooth chipsets than Neptune sells Apex units

Even the forum you linked to... $4000? $2500? That doesn't seem prohibitive to me! Obviously, Neptune _has_ the ability to embed WiFi in their devices... they do so with the later revision of the Apex, right? They've already licensed the technology. I'd just like to see a lower end version, a new 'Apex Jr', or however they choose to market it, with on board WiFi.

New Egg and Google are re-selling something, not making something. Profit is built into their purchase price. And they may even be buying from a middle-man vs the maker. The maker is selling planet-wide, so you get $8 units.

No that does not fly in the aquarium market where unit #'s can be insignificant....unless you wanna design something for a China maker to re-sell all over the planet. That can definitely happen.

 

[Kengar]

So in other words, they tanked.....

 

[Forsaken77]

Whatever happened to the Cerebra or the Milwaukee Blackbox controller line? They were priced well and then fell off the map.

I contacted Milwaukee roughly a year after they released 3 of the 4 models, asking when the best model would be released. I was told they discontinued the current version of the Blackbox and were redesigning it. This was a few years ago. I guess it's dead?

I know there's a lot of upset Cerebra beta testers/owners out there. They kinda got left hanging.

Those could fill the void of the RK's now. It's newer tech with wifi, and had very nice and simple UI's. The Blackbox had multi-monitoring features and some controller features, but hit the major essentials. There was no "if this, then that," controllability, but it was simple and affordable.

Seems like most newer controller options are trying to start at the very high-end (GHL, eKoral), where Apex rules the roost. People are also hesitant being an early adopter on such an expensive, unproven, piece of gear. If they started out in the mass market category and prove themselves to be a value to people and their tech works, they would have a better shot at challenging the king down the line. Apex is so entrenched with an entire ecosystem and many manufacturers already onboard that it will be tough for a newcomer to compete in that segment. Start off at the low end, where most hobbyists are, and evolve to the top.

 

[eKoProCS]

I hear all the time about the attrition rate and a major reason is tank crashes with the biggest point of failure being due to heaters. At the same time the vast majority of people who get through that initial period upgrade and after that they get a 2nd tank. Having a controller should be essential for every newbie (I get some old schoolers don't like them - that's fine).
So to me Apex's strategy doesn't make sense. If they had a sub $300 upgradeable, wifi connected version of their Jr. (available in 120 and 220v) they would corner the market and heaps of people would use them on their 2nd tanks.
That eKoral seem to have brought out a more user friendly controller that is comparable to Apex in most key measures (and is available in 220v) to me says Neptunes is no where near where they should be. That Neptunes can't bring out a new powerbar for EU says to me they are struggling.
Conversely eKoral have done a great job but they'd completely change the game if they had something under $300. I know they must be pricing as cheap as they can and they are delivering (when Neptunes and Vertex aren't).

That said I only really need temp and pH plus a few outlets to start with.

Also exciting is @Seneye-CEO is coming out with the Coral for what I think will be $200 plus $10/mth for the slides. With temp, pH, Alk and Ammonia. Plus they have PAR all in the one product. This is awesome and they have leak detectors coming too.

Sure it's just monitoring and they have this expensive module to connect it to the net. All they need to do is sell a $50 net connection module and $50 controllable outlets. If they did that I don't think many people would consider Apex. For me it would be the bomb.

I'm super stoked eKoral has come in. If I have the money I will probably use a combination of them and the Seneye and get rid of the Apex controller I have. Still I would hesitate because together they add up to over $1,000 and most of what you are paying for is doubled up (like online connection). If Seneye and @eKoProCS make it so they could connect then the eKoral would become everyone's first choice controller and the majority would upgrade to the Seneye within the first year.

I wish there was one affordable solution that covered the core things I feel are the most important to control / understand about your reef tank whilst you are not there checking it = temp control, Alk and pH. The other things I can set and leave (like lights) or I can test when I am at home (salinity, Ca, Mg etc.)

But put it another way - how many new reefers would fail if they were on top of those things?

We do have a more economical option coming out soon - eKoral Lite. This may be a solution for people who don't need all the parameters that the eKoral PRO gives. Some may have seen it when they attended RAP NY.

 

[pickupman66]

I guess I can lay my $.02 in here. I have been using DA products for about 7 years and have done quite well with them. I was part of the Beta test on their New Archon controller. this was to be their future, however Dynon did not dedicate the resources to it as they should have and it was released a bit early in my opinion. It was very cutting edge compared to the rest of the market and had they been successful with it, it would have been a game changer. The goal of the Archon was to be an UPGRADE from the existing reefkeeper. It was to be backwards compatible with all former modules so anyone could just get a new head unit to step into the future. now that it is shelved, i think that was a downfall in that there were still limitations in the legacy equipment.

For those that didnt know, the Archon was Linux based with a complete web interface. The hardware was based upon a router and ran its own webserver in linux. I love it. once stable, it has performed really well on my system but it was not always stable for everyone, and updating initially always resulted in flaws, but we got it to a much more improved state. A team of us worked with Eric to get it to where it was when Dynon shelved it. I think the 2nd flaw they made was not dedicating enough development resources to it. We saw several implemental issues in getting things changed and seeing updates. initially it was hot and heavy. then it slowed to a snails pace or slower. Their 3rd flaw was releasing it before those of us in the BETA thought it was ready. There were still holes in it and it was not as solid as the RKE or RKL. But we worked thru that. Sadly it all ended in October/November when they made the corporate decision to end the program and their relationship with their #1 customer service agent. The crew had been whittled down to just one guy and that was their final downfall. I feel that upper management at Dynon didnt see the profitability in the program and it was done.

Now, I still use my Archon daily. it works great. I have the Head unit, 4x PC4, temp probe, APC, 2x dc pump interfaces, and the SL2 in use currently. I fight with the salinity probe so I have pretty much quit with that part. The Archon controls my WP25s, a WP10 and I had it on my return pump (DC6000) until it died and I upgraded to a new Sine wave Jebao DCP6500. At this time, I have no plans on jumping off this unit, but I may start to build a ReefPi in the coming months so I have something to tinker with. I liked the cutting edge of the Archon and miss the tinkering we did with it. It was very promising and if I could afford it, i would Love to buy the technology rights from DA and start it back up. Maybe another company in the Aquarium business will find the good in it and do this.

 

[saltyhog]

There are two end to that stick. Not everyone wants a Wi-FI capable controller. I really wanted to look at GHL controller because I dont like which way the APEX is heading and the fact that it has a monopoly but as soon as I saw the box at reefapalooze and realized there is no proper LAN port on the back, I literally told the nice guys at the booth that dropping physical Ethernet port was a GREAT MISTAKE!!!

I agree with this. I actually decided to keep my old Apex and not upgrade to the new one because of this. With the advent of nodal routers it's not difficult to "hard wire" your Apex any longer. Far superior to using a gaming adapter.

 

[BZOFIQ]

We do have a more economical option coming out soon - eKoral Lite. This may be a solution for people who don't need all the parameters that the eKoral PRO gives. Some may have seen it when they attended RAP NY.

In their current form I wouldn't even try it. Yes, I did look at it at RAP. Here are couple of things as currently posted on their website that dont exactly give me that warm and fuzzy feeling.

Below pasted from their web:

RETURN POLICY

Our policy lasts 7 days. If 7 days have gone by since your purchase, unfortunately we can’t offer you a refund or exchange.

To be eligible for a return, your item must be unused and in the same condition that you received it. It must also be in the original packaging (warranty cards, manuals, accessories, etc.) An additional 10% restocking fee will be deducted from a refund of an order.

The returned products must include the products in question, accompanying documentation, associated gifts, invoices, shipping documentation and all other associated documentation and materials. They should be returned in the original packaging such as boxes, bags etc. If any item is missing the company may deduct any necessary expenses from the refund amount.

• Please do not return the products before contacting us.
• If the products in question are problem free then you must cover the cost of shipping.

There are certain situations where no refunds are granted (if applicable)

• Any item not in its original condition, is damaged or missing parts for reasons not due to our error.
• Any item that is returned more than 7 days after delivery.

- and -

SHIP YOUR RETURN

All returned merchandise should be shipped to following address unless otherwise instructed:

eKoPro Solutions Inc.

Returns Dept. RMA (place your return authorization number here)

8F, #85 Zhouzi St., Neihu Dist. Taipei, Taiwan

We would recommend using a traceable shipping service or purchasing shipping insurance to keep track of the parcel during transit.


So here are my comments:

On the RETURN POLICY. I'll be brief. 7-Days Does not inspire any confidence in your product.
On No REFUNDS GRANTED - products returned more than 7 days after delivery. This pretty much renders all returns non-refundable. I dont see anyone buying, receiving, finding out there is a problem, requesting RMA, waiting for approval and shipping it back to !CHINA! ......in 7 days.

Unless I willingly take risk and buy something from Alibaba/AliExpress or other amazon/ebay equivalent in china, I do not see myself shipping stuff back to china.

 

[BZOFIQ]

There is also Vertex Cerebra Prima that is going to be available soon. I looked at their site due to Sweepstakes advertised here on R2R and it looks very promising; even has a darn LAN port!!!

https://www.vertexaquaristik.com/us/en/products/cerebra-prima/cerebra-prima/

I love what I am reading so far, but dont know price point, exact availability nor do I have any feedback from any beta testers etc.

Competition is good, DA dropping out is not.

 

[mcarroll]

For those that didnt know, the Archon was Linux based

I did not know most of that – thank for taking the time to post it all!!

 

[Gareth elliott]

In their current form I wouldn't even try it. Yes, I did look at it at RAP. Here are couple of things as currently posted on their website that dont exactly give me that warm and fuzzy feeling.

Below pasted from their web:

RETURN POLICY

Our policy lasts 7 days. If 7 days have gone by since your purchase, unfortunately we can’t offer you a refund or exchange.

To be eligible for a return, your item must be unused and in the same condition that you received it. It must also be in the original packaging (warranty cards, manuals, accessories, etc.) An additional 10% restocking fee will be deducted from a refund of an order.

The returned products must include the products in question, accompanying documentation, associated gifts, invoices, shipping documentation and all other associated documentation and materials. They should be returned in the original packaging such as boxes, bags etc. If any item is missing the company may deduct any necessary expenses from the refund amount.

• Please do not return the products before contacting us.
• If the products in question are problem free then you must cover the cost of shipping.

There are certain situations where no refunds are granted (if applicable)

• Any item not in its original condition, is damaged or missing parts for reasons not due to our error.
• Any item that is returned more than 7 days after delivery.

- and -

SHIP YOUR RETURN

All returned merchandise should be shipped to following address unless otherwise instructed:

eKoPro Solutions Inc.

Returns Dept. RMA (place your return authorization number here)

8F, #85 Zhouzi St., Neihu Dist. Taipei, Taiwan

We would recommend using a traceable shipping service or purchasing shipping insurance to keep track of the parcel during transit.


So here are my comments:

On the RETURN POLICY. I'll be brief. 7-Days Does not inspire any confidence in your product.
On No REFUNDS GRANTED - products returned more than 7 days after delivery. This pretty much renders all returns non-refundable. I dont see anyone buying, receiving, finding out there is a problem, requesting RMA, waiting for approval and shipping it back to !CHINA! ......in 7 days.

Unless I willingly take risk and buy something from Alibaba/AliExpress or other amazon/ebay equivalent in china, I do not see myself shipping stuff back to china.

Their warranty seems about the same as Neptune’s. 1 year.

As to refund policy I would not consider most purchases refundable, other than a mattress that has a trial period, by the way what do they do with a mattress thats returned?

But that policy actually seems more than standard in. even amazon only has a 30 day refund policy and they have probably half a million employees, undoubtedly quite a few in the return department.

Why do you think there are so many unopened items for sale here from nearly every vendor.

 

[pickupman66]

I did not know most of that – thank for taking the time to post it all!!

You are very welcome. In addition, it was supposed to be Open source. the code was all there for those who could do code. if you know your stuff, you can modify it and improve it on your own. Pretty slick but way over my head. I am more on the network/microsoft/userspace end of the spectrum these days

 

[vetteguy53081]

Whatever happened to the Cerebra or the Milwaukee Blackbox controller line? They were priced well and then fell off the map.

I contacted Milwaukee roughly a year after they released 3 of the 4 models, asking when the best model would be released. I was told they discontinued the current version of the Blackbox and were redesigning it. This was a few years ago. I guess it's dead?

I know there's a lot of upset Cerebra beta testers/owners out there. They kinda got left hanging.

Those could fill the void of the RK's now. It's newer tech with wifi, and had very nice and simple UI's. The Blackbox had multi-monitoring features and some controller features, but hit the major essentials. There was no "if this, then that," controllability, but it was simple and affordable.

Seems like most newer controller options are trying to start at the very high-end (GHL, eKoral), where Apex rules the roost. People are also hesitant being an early adopter on such an expensive, unproven, piece of gear. If they started out in the mass market category and prove themselves to be a value to people and their tech works, they would have a better shot at challenging the king down the line. Apex is so entrenched with an entire ecosystem and many manufacturers already onboard that it will be tough for a newcomer to compete in that segment. Start off at the low end, where most hobbyists are, and evolve to the top.

Spoke physically with Vertex Friday on the Cerebra. They are on Target for new unit and Their issues were due to their vendor to assemble/manufacture replacements who bailed out with NO notice to them. They had to assemble an engineering team and start from scratch to make these units, test them and assure the aquarists would be able to use these trouble free. Naturally, they had to test the systems for several months to get true and good results before selling to the public. Their testing ends Labor Day week and they will be able to manufacture quantity for ship slated for late fall.
As For ReefKeeper, even without support, they were reliable and continue to be. The best advice I can give is, rather than wait for any equipment failure, gather parts or a backup unit for future use. I believe their forum remains live, and if not, this is why we have forums such as R2R for help and advice. They are cheap enough to acquire and the easiest to use in my opinion.

 

[Ento-Reefer]

I have a bunch of like new RKL stuff that I am willing to part with. I have a couple of temp probes, a hub, cords, ect ect. PM me if any of you are interested and I’ll get back to you tonight or at least by Friday.