Refugium VS Protein Skimmer

Refugium vs Protein Skimmer which one will be better

  • Refugium (if so why)

    Votes: 12 50.0%
  • Protein Skimmer (if so why)

    Votes: 12 50.0%

  • Total voters
    24
“If one exports +- 35% of the organics once part of balanced food before it is reduced ( the main task of a skimmer) the balance is lost. Where all the nutrients needed for new growth able to take up all released inorganic nutrients, once part of the balanced food, will be retrieved from?”

Corals, macroalgae, macroalgae, diatoms and other photosynthetic organisms do not need organics to consume inorganic N and P.

As you say, the evidence of this is all around us, in reefers who feed, have skimmers and other organic removal mechanisms, and do not have excessive N or P.
 
There’s no evidence that skimmers case a nutrient imbalance, and the only evidence you have provided is a statement that the evidence is all around us. You won’t even explain what is unbalanced by skimming.

Sorry, I see no evidence and think that opinion is not supported by reality.
You avoid answering the questions!?

The reality is since decades in most marine tanks nitrate does accumulate and almost all of those tanks do use a skimmer. Not much has been done the past decades to try to change things. One does have a huge supply of medication for threatening the symptoms but the disease is still there. Maybe some of the treatments are supporting the disease?

The reality is how nature works and how nature manages its nutrient cycles. We only can learn the theories about how it all works and try to bring it in practice. If one does not accept the theories, one can not build on it in practice.
If you do not accept a skimmer creates an unbalance then there is no discussion possible. It is a very basic natural evolution of using a skimmer. One can bring a horse to the river but one can not force it to drink, also when knowing everything about the water quality.

Maybe You can explain why a skimmer can NOT be responsible for an increased nitrate production and maybe you can provide evidence backing up your opinion. I can not explain how a skimmer is able to remove organic carbon compounds without shifting the nutrient balance in the tank and without making the system more autotrophic , without an increasing need for nitrate production. if I must, I must find the information making it possible or tell lies. I do have all information to back up my argumentation. I am ready to learn.
 
Maybe You can explain why a skimmer can NOT be responsible for an increased nitrate production and maybe you can provide evidence backing up your opinion. I can not explain how a skimmer is able to remove organic carbon compounds without shifting the nutrient balance in the tank and without making the system more autotrophic , without an increasing need for nitrate production. if I must, I must find the information making it possible or tell lies. I do have all information to back up my argumentation. I am ready to learn.
Skimmer or not, heterotrophs will use carbon until a system is limited. Nature is funny that way. Nothing goes to waste. That does not mean that dissolved organic carbon should be uncontrolled. In many cases, too much carbon is responsible for an increasing population of heterotrophs we don't want.

I skim in my high bioload tank. Nitrate does not build up. In fact, I add it from time to time.
 
“If one exports +- 35% of the organics once part of balanced food before it is reduced ( the main task of a skimmer) the balance is lost. Where all the nutrients needed for new growth able to take up all released inorganic nutrients, once part of the balanced food, will be retrieved from?”

Corals, macroalgae, macroalgae, diatoms and other photosynthetic organisms do not need organics to consume inorganic N and P.

As you say, the evidence of this is all around us, in reefers who feed, have skimmers and other organic removal mechanisms, and do not have excessive N or P.
I



So, autotrophs only need N and P? I can assure you using AAM based only on the N and P reserve will not work. ( most refugia in use are supposed to take up N an P without adding anything else, using AAM everything else is added in function of N and P take up )

Is a skimmer not responsible for exporting basic ellements needed for growt , needed for taking up N and P ?

Why all those autotrophs taking up N and P and having an unlimited energy source not needing organic carbon can not grow fast enough to prevent nutrients may accumulate, also not in a refuge without AAM?

AAM can be used in combination with a skimmer, AAM can compensate for the skimmer or and unbalanced feed this way maintaining the growth rate needed to clear the water at all times.

Most reefs and other marine setups end up with nutrients accumulating in the system, even those having VLNS are sooner or later confronted with nutrient problems.

But it is all besides the questions and corals are heterotrophs, needing organic carbon .

Does using a skimmer increases the nitrate production or not? Is a skimmer responsible of creating the need for an increasing autotrophic based carrying capacity or not?

If it is about a choice to make for starting up a new system it is obvious a refuge is the best choice.
 
Skimmer or not, heterotrophs will use carbon until a system is limited. Nature is funny that way. Nothing goes to waste. That does not mean that dissolved organic carbon should be uncontrolled. In many cases, too much carbon is responsible for an increasing population of heterotrophs we don't want.

I skim in my high bioload tank. Nitrate does not build up. In fact, I add it from time to time.
if the organic carbon availability is limited using a skimmer , reducers will use up less ammonia once part of the food; This ammonia then can be used for fast photo-autotrophic growth or must be turned into nitrate,. The total amount of ammonia production based on the food added and used up does not change and more nitrate may be produced. This does not mean too much nitrate is produced , it should not accumulate because nitrate is usable nitrogen and is consumed and exported constantly. There is a direct link between the capacity of a skimmer and nitrate production, the better the skimmer the more ammonia must be processed by autotrophs, leading to more nitrate production . Increasing nitrate availability will increase the natural nitrate export rate. Nitrate production and nitrate accumulation must not have the same cause.
 
You avoid answering the questions!?

The reality is since decades in most marine tanks nitrate does accumulate and almost all of those tanks do use a skimmer. Not much has been done the past decades to try to change things. One does have a huge supply of medication for threatening the symptoms but the disease is still there. Maybe some of the treatments are supporting the disease?

The reality is how nature works and how nature manages its nutrient cycles. We only can learn the theories about how it all works and try to bring it in practice. If one does not accept the theories, one can not build on it in practice.
If you do not accept a skimmer creates an unbalance then there is no discussion possible. It is a very basic natural evolution of using a skimmer. One can bring a horse to the river but one can not force it to drink, also when knowing everything about the water quality.

Maybe You can explain why a skimmer can NOT be responsible for an increased nitrate production and maybe you can provide evidence backing up your opinion. I can not explain how a skimmer is able to remove organic carbon compounds without shifting the nutrient balance in the tank and without making the system more autotrophic , without an increasing need for nitrate production. if I must, I must find the information making it possible or tell lies. I do have all information to back up my argumentation. I am ready to learn.

Avoid answering questions? Ridiculous accusation against someone who answers dozens of questions every day here.

How can skimming not result in increased nitrate? Super easy: nitrogen contain organics are exported before they break down to nitrate.

A far harder question to answer is how exporting nitrogen containing organics results in an increase in nitrogen. Your only explanation is a bunch of hand waving theories that somehow the exported organics prevent bacteria from using those organics to consume ammonia or nitrate.

You are (IMO, mistakenly) assuming that bacteria that consume those organics that would be otherwise skimmed out are a better consumer of inorganic nitrogen. I think that is misguided. Those organics, such as proteins, contain so much more nitrogen than those bacteria need that they are a net producer of inorganic N, not a consumer.

The reason organic carbon dosing turns this around is because we dose special organics that do not contain N.
 
if the organic carbon availability is limited using a skimmer , reducers will use up less ammonia once part of the food; This ammonia then can be used for fast photo-autotrophic growth or must be turned into nitrate,. The total amount of ammonia production based on the food added and used up does not change and more nitrate may be produced. This does not mean too much nitrate is produced , it should not accumulate because nitrate is usable nitrogen and is consumed and exported constantly. There is a direct link between the capacity of a skimmer and nitrate production, the better the skimmer the more ammonia must be processed by autotrophs, leading to more nitrate production . Increasing nitrate availability will increase the natural nitrate export rate. Nitrate production and nitrate accumulation must not have the same cause.

IMO, that paragraph is an inaccurate assertion based on inaccurate and unsupported ideas about what is removed by a skimmer, and what it would do if not removed, as I explain above.
 
Why do I prefer promoting growth over limiting growth and using a skimmer?

I explain it again.

The food is what is added. The feed is the food + everything what is reused for feeding.

It is about respecting the basic laws of life and growth?

If one removes organic carbon once part of feed, other than heterotrophic growth becomes responsible for maintaining the carrying capacity needed to support the bio-load, by removing the toxic ammonia produced in a closed system. In a closed system organic carbon is exported constantly for producing energy.
It is about very basic knowledge everyone managing a life support system should know and master.

Every time from the same food is reused ( nutrient cycle), part of the feed, organic carbon once present in the food is used for energy and is exported as CO2. This means in time a closed system becomes more and more dependable of autotrophs for supporting the carrying capacity. One has to limit the nutrient cycles, or import enough organic carbon ( low protein food) to maintain the growth needed, something we can do using a refuge. Using a skimmer will in time increase the need for autotrophic growth. To prevent the system, which is autotrophic based, becomes more dependable of nitrate production for removing ammonia, we use growth not needing organic carbon but making it, we grow macro-algae, this for providing enough photo-autotrohic growth, needing less nitrate production to support the increasing autotrophic based carrying capacity.


In theory and practice, in a closed system, nitrate is produced in relation to the C/N ratio of the feed. The nitrogen content of food depends on the protein content of the food. The higher the protein content the more nitrate must be produced to maintain the carrying capacity of the system.

The basics are very simple.

The carrying capacity needed for supporting the bio-load is about removing most produced ammonia as fast as possible.

The carrying capacity is supported by 3 pillars. 1 heterotrophic growth ( reducers, bacteria needing organics), 2 autotropic growth (nitrifiers, bacteria and archaea) and 3 photo-autotrophic growth ( the producers, cyano, grasses, algae and all phyto)


A fish and other target organisms ( the consumers) eat the food but use only about 15% of it. With the exception of carbon (because from the organic carbon present in the food a lot is used for producing energy and is released as CO2) +- 85% is released, the nitrogen mainly in the form of toxic ammonia.

Most of nitrogen in the food is released as ammonia and a lot of the organic carbon in the food is exported. Depending on the C/N ratio of the food pillar 1, the fasted growers, reducing the feces ( containing very little nitrogen) will use ammonia fast to grow ( logarithmic growth) A lot of the organic carbon is already exported by the target organisms, by the consumers, and pillar 1 will use up and export the rest. This means not all ammonia available can be used up by pillar 1, leaving produced usable inorganic nutrients, elements of the feces, behind.
Being the final part of the mineralization process pillar 2 plays a very important role and tries to use up ammonia left over after the feces have been broken down. Pillar 2 does not need much nutrients for transforming toxic ammonia into safely stored and usable nitrogen, nitrate. But as they are slow growers, because they run there own private energy production factory, some ammonia will be left for pillar 3;
No problem at all. If everything what was once in the balanced food has been broken down into usable elements for growth, pilar2 and 3 will remove all ammonia left over and pillar 3 will use up all available nitrate , clearing the water off all nutrients. ( al lot , about 16%, of produced nitrate normally is exported by natural denitrification.) Depending on the composition of the feed all nutrients should be used up wile maintaining the carrying capacity by balanced growth.

Nutrient management starts with what is going in. The lower the C/N ratio of the feed ( high protein content) the more autotrophic ( pillar 2 and 3) the carry capacity must become to be able to support the bio-load, the more nitrate there must be produced. But as shown, this should not be a problem.

The problem is , what happens if the balance is NOT maintained.?

What happens if a good skimmer removes 35% of the organic carbon and other essentials once part of the feed but not ammonia? The system must become more autotrophic but pilar 3 may not be able to remove all nitrogen and phosphate because of growth limitations.

What happens if a mechanical filter removes part of the organic waste but not ammonia?

What happens using the combination skimmer and mechanical filters?

The C/N ratio of feed ( mainly the protein content) controls the way in which the load-bearing capacity is supported, the division between 1 or 2 and 3 but only if organic waste once part of the food is not exported .
If organic waste once part of the food is exported but not ammonia the system must produce more nitrate to be able to maintain the carrying capacity needed, to be able to remove all produced ammonia.
If an unknown part of organic waste once part of the feed is exported but not ammonia it will be impossible to mange the nutrient balance by managing growth and by using balanced food.

What goes in can be be exported. This can be done by harvesting growth. by harvesting 3.

In fact it is very simple:
The C/N ratio of feed ( mainly the protein content) controls the way in which the load-bearing capacity is supported, the division between 1 or 2 and 3 but only if organic waste once part of the food is not exported .
If organic waste once part of the food is exported but not ammonia, that part can not be part of the total feed, can not be reused, the system must produce more nitrate to be able to maintain the carrying capacity needed, to be able to remove all produced ammonia.
If an unknown part of organic waste once part of the feed is exported but not ammonia it will be impossible to mange the nutrient balance by managing growth and by using balanced food.

What goes in can be be exported. This can be done by harvesting growth. by harvesting 3.

My conclusion: Most reefers create an unbalance and then one does try to correct this by battling the symptoms instead of threatening the cause.

Is it about battling the symptoms? Is it about balancing or preventing? or is it about eliminating the cause ?

Batling symptoms based only on Nitrate and Phosphate overproduction is very simple using AAM in a refuge, active aquarium management. AAM can also be used for balancing the nutrients, all nutrients, also for curing or and preventing. AAM is about target feeding in a refuge maintaining the growth and growth rates needed for clearing the water. Growth is then harvested in function of the growth rate needed. All this using a refuge. A skimmer will not help you out here!

The role of the skimmer, it is very complicated .

For making a choice, why only the role of the holy skimmer is discussed and not the huge possibilities of using a refuge?
A refuge is used for managing growth, all kinds of growth, not only algae, and is not a small tank with a ball of Chaeto.
Making a choice between a refuge and a skimmer? For me it is obvious, I do know about the possibilities of a refuge and AAM.
 
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Ron Shimek quantifies the nitrogen and other elemental contents in skimmate here:

Nothing new? This is very old information we discused before. We all know a skimmer also removes growth , containing nitrogen and everything else. ( in total +- 35% of all organics available) I hope they do explain why a skimmer is used and what are its limitations and caveats when buying one. This does not change a thing about the fact a skimmer removes organic carbon needed to prevent the system to become more dependable of autotrophic growth and nitrification.

Why defending the very limited possibilities of a skimmer and not discussing the huge possibilities of using a refuge.
This treat is about making a choice between a refuge and a skimmer. Not about using both. By the way what is your choice? Without turning in circles for not having to make one.

Why one may need a skimmer if one has a refuge removing as much as possible?
Why one may need a refuge when having a skimmer removing as much as possible?


Maybe you can answer these question making the choice less complicated. My explanation will be broken down anyway.
 
Nothing new? This is very old information we discused before. We all know a skimmer also removes growth , containing nitrogen and everything else. ( in total +- 35% of all organics available) I hope they do explain why a skimmer is used and what are its limitations and caveats when buying one. This does not change a thing about the fact a skimmer removes organic carbon needed to prevent the system to become more dependable of autotrophic growth and nitrification.

Why defending the very limited possibilities of a skimmer and not discussing the huge possibilities of using a refuge.
This treat is about making a choice between a refuge and a skimmer. Not about using both. By the way what is your choice? Without turning in circles for not having to make one.

Why one may need a skimmer if one has a refuge removing as much as possible?
Why one may need a refuge when having a skimmer removing as much as possible?


Maybe you can answer these question making the choice less complicated. My explanation will be broken down anyway.

I have nothing against refugia. I like and recommend them.

It’s your unsupported claims about skimmers causing elevated nitrogen that I am disputing.
 
My preference is skimmer. But that is only because I have proven myself inept at growing chaeto. I have tried three times and in each attempt the chaeto turned to sludge.

Wish someone could fix it for me.
 
Old thread but my last sump was: refugium (no filter socks) / skimmer and reactor / filter floss / return. I used a fiji cube sump kit on a 40B and I loved it. My nutrients were always too low and ended up with amphidinum dinos, which is another story.
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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