Return Pump from Basement

[Hampton]

Hello,

I've been building a house for 2 1/2 years, have moved my tank twice, am about to move it to it's final resting spot, and will be placing the sump in the basement below the tank.

Tank - 30 Gallon round saltwater/coral tank with a recirculation pump in table below - plenty of flow.

Sump - 90 gallon, 11' of lift, total of 15' of return. Does NOT need to be self priming. I prefer to place the pump outside of the sump. I only need about 100 - 200 gph flow.

I've read several threads here, but haven't found a similar application. Ideas?

Also, what's the latest trend in skimmers? I need ultra pure water.

Thank you.

 

[jda]

Get a really good AC pump. I would use a Laguna or Fluval to meet your specs. They are lower wattage, super reliable, will last a decade or two and are not expensive.

Skimmer are the same as they have been. The best ones have Red Dragon Pumps (Bubble King) or are Venturi from LifeReef - Bubble King are hard to get parts for and the LifeReef need a powerful pump (this is no good for some folks, but I think that they are foolish and will spend at least as much dealing with the organics that they left in their tanks). I have had nearly every skimmer and I can tell you that these are better than the rest, but two "normal" skimmers will outperform a single super-awesome skimmer and cost much less. Most skimmer pumps are in the 30-40 watt range, so operating costs are not huge. Nowadays, I run two skimmers on every system - currently it as an older EuroReef 12-2 and a RO with the Sicce Pump (much better than the newer pumps). I still have my LifeReef and will never sell it, but it it is too tall for my current stand.

 

[BillyN]

That will be nice to have sump in basement below your DT. Adding to JD's post, when researching your pump options review the pump flow curve chart for the pumps you are considering. It is a chart of flow rate vs head (lift), which should be available via mfg's website, to ensure what you are buying meets your flow needs at lift (lift is difference between water level in DT and water level in sump).

Just curious why you have 90 gal sump for a 30 gal DT?

 

[Hampton]

I got tired of taking care of my 90 gallon show tank with a 30 gallon refugium in the stand beneath it. The 90 was too high for me and the refugium was too hard to get to.

I designed a 30 gallon round with six holes in the bottom and built it into a table with a recirculation pump and octopus water distribution system. I moved the 30 gallon refugium to an isolated area under the kitchen sink.... Still too hard to get to.

So, we built a house with a basement in Florida. My goal is to develop the most awesome small display tank with an easy access, large support system to buffer the small display. I'm using my custom 90 gallon high display tank as a refugium.

This is possibly my last big blast at growing a beautiful ecosystem that isn't hard to access and service for once.

I am open to suggestions.

Should I plan to skim 120 gallons or just 30? I'm leaning toward 120.

 

[Hampton]

Also, I've decided I need about 15' of head pressure. 11' vertical plus a couple of bends, about 15' of total run, and a little flow from the refugium to the DT.

I plan to keep the refugium in the dark right now, but will probably add a small, low flow section with macro algae and lighting to stabilize the pH over night.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

You mentioned external being your preference for return pump. Hands down iwaki or pan world. @jda The askoll blocks are phenomenal AC options and I'd be the first to 2nd that reference in most cases, but they are a poor fit for a scenario with 11' or so of lift required since it is within a foot or 2 of the pump's head height shut off threshold. The askoll motors are just not designed with higher head situations in mind.

For 100 - 200 gph at 11' of lift a Panworld 50px or 100px will do just fine. Throw a ball valve on the outlet and dial it in to your taste. Both are lower flow yet pressure rated pumps. If you don't mind spending a little more coin an iwaki MD -40RT would be the cream of the crop for your specific high head, yet low flow desires. All those would need to be throttled back a bit to get your precise needs, but I think you'll find as long as you have an intake strainer on the inlet you'll get 5+ trouble free years out of them at minimum. I have a couple Iwakis that are over 10 years now without having ever been opened up and serviced.

 

[Hampton]

Thank you for the pump advice. Any brands come to mind?

I'm curious about why two skimmers instead of one, larger, less expensive one. I have plenty of room.

 

[Hampton]

You mentioned external being your preference for return pump. Hands down iwaki or pan world. @jda The askoll blocks are phenomenal AC options and I'd be the first to 2nd that reference in most cases, but they are a poor fit for a scenario with 11' or so of lift required since it is within a foot or 2 of the pump's head height shut off threshold. The askoll motors are just not designed with higher head situations in mind.

For 100 - 200 gph at 11' of lift a Panworld 50px or 100px will do just fine. Throw a ball valve on the outlet and dial it in to your taste. Both are lower flow yet pressure rated pumps. If you don't mind spending a little more coin an iwaki MD -40RT would be the cream of the crop for your specific high head, yet low flow desires. All those would need to be throttled back a bit to get your precise needs, but I think you'll find as long as you have an intake strainer on the inlet you'll get 5+ trouble free years out of them at minimum. I have a couple Iwakis that are over 10 years now without having ever been opened up and serviced.

Great advice. Thank you. I like the specifics. I've been so distracted building this house, I've completely lost touch with the systems that are available.

 

[Hampton]

I am reading that the pan world PS models are better for lift than the px models. Does anyone know what pxx, pxt, ps all mean? Pxt seems to be external. Anyone know which ones are air cooled and which ones are water cooled?

 

[ca1ore]

All the panworld pumps are externals. I'm not sure what the exact designation stands for, but the PX designation is for pressure applications, PX-X for flow. Up to the model 100 that is. Above that they are designated as PS, all pressure rated. The model 50 and higher are all fan cooled.

I'm a big fan and have a bunch of them on my system. Main is a 200PS pumping against 14'. Skimmer pump is a 100PX, and my chiller recirculator is a 50PX-X. Not particularly quiet nor energy efficient, but really reliable. Probably the 50 PX would suffice for your application.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

All the panworld pumps are externals. I'm not sure what the exact designation stands for, but the PX designation is for pressure applications, PX-X for flow. Up to the model 100 that is. Above that they are designated as PS, all pressure rated. Tthe model 50 and higher are all fan cooled.

Yup that is correct. I recommended he use the PX models since he only needs about 100-200 gph at roughly 15' head pressure. Any of the PS series are going to be monstrously overpowered for his needs. The Px-x will not afford the head pressure for his application. Or he could use an Iwaki japanese motor RT series like a 30 or 40rt to achieve the same effect.

 

[Hampton]

Thank you both for your replies. I don't understand why their own website doesn't lay out the specifics about their own nomenclature. Right now, I am leaning toward the 50, but with a 100, I can "Y" off, route the second leg back into the refugium through a ball valve to increase flow inside the refugium itself, but this may not be desirable to have anyway. Either way, I will need to modulate the flow from the return pump to avoid too much overflow in such a small DT.

 

[jda]

I have a Laguna 2900 that pumps up 16 feet at about 800-900 GPH. I would trust an appropriate sized Laguna to get the job done - Laguna 2400 should be fine.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

I have a Laguna 2900 that pumps up 16 feet at about 800-900 GPH. I would trust an appropriate sized Laguna to get the job done - Laguna 2400 should be fine.

Are you sure it's actually 16' of head and still pushing 800-900gph. The max head quoted on that pump is under 15' and it is the same motor block as an SP6 fluval sea which I have running in a number of medium head applications where it is pushing only about 1200gph at 9' of head so I fail to see how that's possible unless you have a bionic example of a Laguna 2900. The 2400 is quoted at 12' max head which is less than the minimum the OP said he requires, so unless laguna/fluval/askoll is severely underrating their pumps they seem a poor fit for this specific case of intended use.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing as I agree that the askoll/laguna pumps are phenomenal and the industry best for submersible AC options. But given the OP wants to use an external anyways a much lower flow 60-100w pressure rated sealless magnetic drive option would be more purpose driven for the application would it not? Do you not agree for that specific case of use it's a better fit? I like the Askoll units but in terms of their intended design spec they seem much more driven to operate at peak efficiency in a low-medium head/high flow application rather than a high head/low flow installation.

Thank you both for your replies. I don't understand why their own website doesn't lay out the specifics about their own nomenclature. Right now, I am leaning toward the 50, but with a 100, I can "Y" off, route the second leg back into the refugium through a ball valve to increase flow inside the refugium itself, but this may not be desirable to have anyway. Either way, I will need to modulate the flow from the return pump to avoid too much overflow in such a small DT.

You'll want a pump that is sized to allow for a bit of overhead in terms of flow/pressure. It's always better to throttle a main pump back a bit since then you can dial in the flow rate precisely to match the quietest drain out rate your specific overflow will handle. T-ing it off is fine if you want to add a bit more recirc flow through the refugium, but largely unnecessary unless that's something you'd like to have for playing around with. Won't hurt or harm the pumps overall function in any capacity provided there is still enough back pressure in the system to still allow it to push up the 15' of head you need to overcome. You coul dial that in with a ball valve on the outlet of the refugium recirc T.

As to why the magnetic drive pump companies don't have a general public level of understanding explanation on their own site is due to the fact that these pumps are not aquarium specific designs in most cases. They are used as industrial legos in fluid processing since they have excellent chemical handling properties given the lack of mechanical seal to leak process fluid and their glass fiber reinforced nylon volute, impeller, and rotor wells. It just so happens that corrosive fluids like saltwater are a perfect fit for these properties as well and they are much more reliable in my experience than mechanically sealed 'pool' pumps which are shaft driven centrifugal pumps with a mechanical seal keeping the saltwater inside the impeller housing. These will invariably leak a tiny amount of fluid through the seal as a part of the design called fugitive emission. Once the seal fails though it will leak a lot more and in many cases I've seen the saltwater creep down the shaft and short out the motor itself if not serviced in time.

 

[jda]

10 foot basement ceilings, 1 foot of subfloor and 5 feet to the tank rim. This does not count any pipe friction of elbows. It moves more water up there than the PanWorld 150PS that it replaced - I do love me some PanWorld, BTW, just wanted to get the watts in the tank to help heat some as well as reclaim some floor space next to the tank. I used flex 3/4" ID hose so that cuts down on a lot of elbows.

I do agree that the SP6 cannot handle this. I have both and the Laguna moves significantly more water. Keep in mind that the two only share the block and not impellers, volutes, etc - IMO, the only performance that that they have in common is the reliability and longevity. The Laguna comes with a super-long cord like a Mag does... which is both handy and annoying depending on what you are using it for.

OP - if you are worried about head and don't want to use external, then get a Mag - they can handle the pressure too. I would not consider then quite as reliable as a Laguna and they do use a bit more wattage, but many tanks have been running on MagDrive pumps for decades.

 

[jda]

BTW - the Laguna 2900 used less watts than the PanWorld 150PS.

Yes, a 100PX would be a great pump if external is on the menu.

 

[Hampton]

If I place the pump on the floor next to the refugium which is elevated, do I need to add another 5' of head pressure as compared to placing it on a table next to the refugium?

 

[rockskimmerflow]

10 foot basement ceilings, 1 foot of subfloor and 5 feet to the tank rim. This does not count any pipe friction of elbows. It moves more water up there than the PanWorld 150PS that it replaced - I do love me some PanWorld, BTW, just wanted to get the watts in the tank to help heat some as well as reclaim some floor space next to the tank. I used flex 3/4" ID hose so that cuts down on a lot of elbows.

I do agree that the SP6 cannot handle this. I have both and the Laguna moves significantly more water. Keep in mind that the two only share the block and not impellers, volutes, etc - IMO, the only performance that that they have in common is the reliability and longevity. The Laguna comes with a super-long cord like a Mag does... which is both handy and annoying depending on what you are using it for.

OP - if you are worried about head and don't want to use external, then get a Mag - they can handle the pressure too. I would not consider then quite as reliable as a Laguna and they do use a bit more wattage, but many tanks have been running on MagDrive pumps for decades.

Wow that's good to know. The 2900 must really be underrated A LOT from the manufacturer. I do know they have a different impeller and volute from the SP series but the Lagunas lack the nice alumina ceramic bearing surfaces and shaft. I'm certain the 150 PS will outperform the 2900 in a high head situation since it is designed to only top out at 1100gph even at 0 head, but it can hit 28 feet of vertical back pressure before it runs out of steam. Doesn't surprise me though that at the head you're putting it under the Laguna smokes it. Those AC reluctance motor pumps with wet rotors like the Laguna will generally push a surprising amount of water right up until the moment you exceed their shut off head and then that's it. I just had no idea the 2900 had an actual shut off head so high above the spec sheet number. Laguna says it's doing under 800gph at just under 14', then runs out of steam before 15'.

The OP does not need more than 100-200gph as he only has a 30g tank to run upstairs so even the 150 PS is way too much for his needs. The 50px would probably be the best fit, but 100px would still be the best option IMO to give more throttling leeway and still use fairly minimal wattage.

Also this is more a long term reliability preference and it's totally subjective, but I much prefer to run sealless magnetic drives when a pump is definitely going to be run externally. The single phase AC design just has the edge imo in terms of starting torque and resistance to impeller fouling etc. If submersible is needed I go askoll motor block everytime, save for the smaller sub 120g systems where the eheim hobby series 1260-1262 is my weapon of choice.

Thanks for the first hand info on the 2900, may have to pick one up just to play around with against some of the sp6's I have running.

 

[Hampton]

If I place the pump on the floor next to the refugium which is elevated, do I need to add another 5' of head pressure as compared to placing it on a table next to the refugium?

In other words, does the pressure on the incoming side of the pump translate over to the outgoing side of the pump?

Picture this: You plumb an external pump with flexible tubing both in and out. You have 10' on the in side and 20' on the out side. The pump is fed from a bulkhead to the pump sitting on the table next to the tank. Now, you elevate the out side tubing until the pump is just able to produce a trickle.

Next, you change nothing except to lower the pump to the floor. The height difference from the top of the tank to the top outflow tube hasn't changed.

Will the water still trickle out?

If you did the same experiment with a syphon, it would. I suspect that with a pump, it would not.

I suspect that the placement of the pump, in height, matters. Thoughts?

 

[Hampton]

Anyone?