Reverse engineering All-For-Reef?

[hunterallen40]

I think people dismiss kalkwasser a little too early. That stuff is incredibly cheap, and it can go quite far... I have two 5 gallon jugs for my 50 gallon frag tank that I dose kalk out of. I add just a little bit of 2-part, but that's purely to have room to expand the dose when the demand increases.

You can also run kalk on a cheaper doser, since you are usually dosing several mL at a time. I use one of those $90 jebao wifi dosers for it -- four heads, but I only use two.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Carbo Calcium is cheap when you buy the 1400g dry powder. I don't buy into too much of what BRS has to say, but I listen to Lou.

Cheap is a relative term, but it is more than some other methods. For some folks or for small tanks, cost may not matter. For some folks, it is an issue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think people dismiss kalkwasser a little too early. That stuff is incredibly cheap, and it can go quite far... I have two 5 gallon jugs for my 50 gallon frag tank that I dose kalk out of. I add just a little bit of 2-part, but that's purely to have room to expand the dose when the demand increases.

I agree. it's the only additive for alk and calcium I ever needed.

 

[c_ronius]

Cheap is a relative term, but it is more than some other methods. For some folks or for small tanks, cost may not matter. For some folks, it is an issue.

Gotya, makes perfect sense. I should have been clearer than my blanket statement...

I consider it cheap because it costs me less money and time with my particular setup, vs other methods.

My 160 gal system consumes 1-1.5 DKH during a day, depending on the time of year ( I run annual daylight length simulation). I have used kalkwasser for 30 years, and still dose it every night, all night long. I cannot evaporate enough (especially in the summer) for kalkwasser alone to keep up. I need a secondary means to keep calcium and alkalinity up. Lots of acropora, other sps, and large brain/moon corals really suck it down.

For this system, Carbo Calcium (1400g dry) is less expensive than either 2-part or a reactor for the needs of my particular tank. I have had reactors and dosed 2-part in the past, and I find Carbo Calcium requires less money to purchase the product, less equipment to automate dosing, and considerably less maintenance.

My 40 gal system only uses about .5 DKH per week, and is replaced easily with kalkwasser alone.

Every tank is different , and depending on needs there may be cheaper methods available. For my main system, Carbo Calcium is the cheap method.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Gotya, makes perfect sense. I should have been clearer than my blanket statement...

I consider it cheap because it costs me less money and time with my particular setup, vs other methods.

My 160 gal system consumes 1-1.5 DKH during a day, depending on the time of year ( I run annual daylight length simulation). I have used kalkwasser for 30 years, and still dose it every night, all night long. I cannot evaporate enough (especially in the summer) for kalkwasser alone to keep up. I need a secondary means to keep calcium and alkalinity up. Lots of acropora, other sps, and large brain/moon corals really suck it down.

For this system, Carbo Calcium (1400g dry) is less expensive than either 2-part or a reactor for the needs of my particular tank. I have had reactors and dosed 2-part in the past, and I find Carbo Calcium requires less money to purchase the product, less equipment to automate dosing, and considerably less maintenance.

My 40 gal system only uses about .5 DKH per week, and is replaced easily with kalkwasser alone.

Every tank is different , and depending on needs there may be cheaper methods available. For my main system, Carbo Calcium is the cheap method.

IMO, limewater (kalkwasser) is clearly far cheaper than carbocalcium, even buying hobby material vs food grade from Amazon (Mrs wages).

Calcium formate, 1400 g, $36.36 from BRS.

Calcium Hydroxide 1814 g (equivalent to 3,174 g carbocalcium) $25.24 from BRS

 

[c_ronius]

IMO, limewater (kalkwasser) is clearly far cheaper than carbocalcium, even buying hobby material vs food grade from Amazon (Mrs wages).

Calcium formate, 1400 g, $36.36 from BRS.

Calcium Hydroxide 1814 g (equivalent to 3,174 g carbocalcium) $25.24 from BRS

I didn't mean to suggest it was, I use both. I was comparing the cost of Carbo Calcium vs 2-part vs calcium reactors. Kalk is the constant in my system. Sorry I cannot communicate it very well, I'm just trying to share my experience.

 

[Doctorgori]

What size display are you talking about and what is the estimated daily dose? Have you calculated that yet then done any match to see how long a $75 dollar 1600 gram container of powder will last you?

Latency readings are not a issue. You get the water parameters where you want them to start then calculate your daily dose and go. Similar approach to dosing other things. Go slow, start lower, and usually everything is peachy.




TM AFR has been out for a while. Liquid first I believe and the general consensus at the time was that it was better suited for nano, smaller tanks, due to the cost. BRS produced a video whereas Zac (I think it was his name) took off Tropic Marin products and created the DIY recipe. I'm not sure if he put it together or worked with Tropic Marin. This brought the price down and people started to use it for larger systems. Myself included not that it matters. Somewhere in between all of this Tropic Marin created the powder formula and sold it in Europe. It finally made its way to the US and elsewhere which I'd guess most use.

The reason for this wall of text is to say TM fully supported the DIY component videos and work on creating a powder version to lower the cost even further. It has nothing to do with the videos you are seeing with BRS and X vendor. They do them with Tidal Gardens, Marine Collectors, and more.

TL: DR - juice probably isn't worth the squeeze trying to DIY using non TM products. Calculate your daily dose using the 1600g powder and see if it works. If it still seems too high then look at the DIY 2/3 part kits from RHF.

TLDR warning!!
To answer I have a RR 650 (180g), RR 450(110g), RR 300G2 (80g) & 170 (45g) …. little/no sump space either..
650 will be SPS,
450 (Atlantic/Gulf, Gorgonians, Rock flowers, zoas, et)
300: Clams, LPS
170: Torches, hammers, alveapora , blah blah
…I broke it down like that to simplify flow and alk consumption, so I’m looking for a holy grail solution of cost & simplicty that doesn’t involve expensive 4pt dosers, dosing and ordering from BRS every month, basically something involving 2 dose heads and no commitment to weekly H2O changes…Also relevant is living in SC with summer 90’s, AC, closed windows, high CO2 and low pH issues…

I am a old school Kalkwasser user but don’t have the space for volumes of storage so I’m currently researching Stirrers, but nobody’s reviews have given me confidence to pick a brand/model ..
AFR seemed as attractive option up and until I depleted that $80 can and I’m thinking of somehow offsetting the consumption with Kalk and its pH boost as a side benefit…

Randys newer high pH 2pt formula is also in consideration but that sounds like it needs support with a trace solution or maybe more water changes, which I can’t support w/o a RO unit (for now I’m using carbon filters rain water for top off )

This input is giving me confidence to maybe pursue using Kalk with AFR to maybe offset some of that cost… I lost most of my stock moving so its also a wait and see approach …

 

[areefer01]

TLDR warning!!
To answer I have a RR 650 (180g), RR 450(110g), RR 300G2 (80g) & 170 (45g) …. little/no sump space either..
650 will be SPS,
450 (Atlantic/Gulf, Gorgonians, Rock flowers, zoas, et)
300: Clams, LPS
170: Torches, hammers, alveapora , blah blah
…I broke it down like that to simplify flow and alk consumption, so I’m looking for a holy grail solution of cost & simplicty that doesn’t involve expensive 4pt dosers, dosing and ordering from BRS every month, basically something involving 2 dose heads and no commitment to weekly H2O changes…Also relevant is living in SC with summer 90’s, AC, closed windows, high CO2 and low pH issues…

I am a old school Kalkwasser user but don’t have the space for volumes of storage so I’m currently researching Stirrers, but nobody’s reviews have given me confidence to pick a brand/model ..
AFR seemed as attractive option up and until I depleted that $80 can and I’m thinking of somehow offsetting the consumption with Kalk and its pH boost as a side benefit…

Randys newer high pH 2pt formula is also in consideration but that sounds like it needs support with a trace solution or maybe more water changes, which I can’t support w/o a RO unit (for now I’m using carbon filters rain water for top off )

This input is giving me confidence to maybe pursue using Kalk with AFR to maybe offset some of that cost… I lost most of my stock moving so its also a wait and see approach …

Thanks for the reply. Appreciate it. I do not have as many tanks but I do have a 210 gallon with a couple large mature SPS colonies. The rest of the tank varies in size and coral like gorgonians, leathers, lps, etc. Mixed reef of 6 years. Like you I wanted a simple solution for dosing so started with ESV 2 part. Worked great. I saw All For Reef and considered it but at the time liquid was all they had. Rough calculations for daily dose I decided to stay with ESV.

One day I came across Zac's BRS video with taking the over the counter TM products and blending the AFR mix on your own. Dropped the price down between 100 - 110 dollars. I was like cool - a little more affordable and I could swing it so started its use. TM noted at some point there was a powder being worked on but released in EMEA first while they work on supply chain. Finally hit the US and a 1600 g container is 75 bucks and makes 10 liters. Finally.

Around this time I was peaking my daily dose upwards of 110 ml/day. I do have a budget and corals are growing so I needed to do some rough math and see if it made sense to continue the use of it. Single dosing head or not.

Display parameter range:
Alk 8.4
Ca 440
Mg 1240

Rough math:
$75 TM AFR 1600 g
1600 g makes 10 liters
10 liters = 10,000 milliliters
10000 / 110 = 90 days
$0.83 per day
$300 per year in TM AFR 1600g powder

Numbers more or less seemed correct. Single dosing head and a product what I believe is covering the majority of Ca, Alk, trace elements, and Mg. Using these numbers I decided to stay with TM AFR. I still have ESV 2 part to manually bump if needed and it does happen from time to time. The spare dosing head (I use Neptune DOS) is free and I've been using it for ESV's Transition Elements. I may move it over to LC though - not sure.

Kalk or one of RHF's blends may be cheaper and yield a ph buff and has a sound history behind it. In any case the wall of text above is my reason for using TM AFR. Early morning photo of my display as I work on cleaning the glass and blowing off the light fans.

Note: also know I don't point my success, or luck, to any one product be it lighting, or what I dose. I believe I would have the same display if I used kalk or a 2 or 3 part. I think that is important to clarify. I use TM AFR for ease of use and what I believe it brings to the table in a single product.

All the best.

 

[hunterallen40]

TLDR warning!!
To answer I have a RR 650 (180g), RR 450(110g), RR 300G2 (80g) & 170 (45g) …. little/no sump space either..
650 will be SPS,
450 (Atlantic/Gulf, Gorgonians, Rock flowers, zoas, et)
300: Clams, LPS
170: Torches, hammers, alveapora , blah blah
…I broke it down like that to simplify flow and alk consumption, so I’m looking for a holy grail solution of cost & simplicty that doesn’t involve expensive 4pt dosers, dosing and ordering from BRS every month, basically something involving 2 dose heads and no commitment to weekly H2O changes…Also relevant is living in SC with summer 90’s, AC, closed windows, high CO2 and low pH issues…

I am a old school Kalkwasser user but don’t have the space for volumes of storage so I’m currently researching Stirrers, but nobody’s reviews have given me confidence to pick a brand/model ..
AFR seemed as attractive option up and until I depleted that $80 can and I’m thinking of somehow offsetting the consumption with Kalk and its pH boost as a side benefit…

Randys newer high pH 2pt formula is also in consideration but that sounds like it needs support with a trace solution or maybe more water changes, which I can’t support w/o a RO unit (for now I’m using carbon filters rain water for top off )

This input is giving me confidence to maybe pursue using Kalk with AFR to maybe offset some of that cost… I lost most of my stock moving so its also a wait and see approach …

Have you considered Randy's two part + something like tropic Marin A & K trace elements and some sodium chloride free salt water? This is a great way to balance it out. Btw, Randy's newer formula for boosted pH is every bit as potent as kalk for the pH boost.

If you want to eliminate water changes entirely... I would consider a program like reef moonshiners or triton.

 

[apb03]

I just went to Kalk and am absolutely floored by how my tank has responded. Dialed down the AFR but still have 10ml a day going in. Seems like a perfect match between the two.

 

[Doctorgori]

TLDR warning!!
To answer I have a RR 650 (180g), RR 450(110g), RR 300G2 (80g) & 170 (45g) …. little/no sump space either..
650 will be SPS,
450 (Atlantic/Gulf, Gorgonians, Rock flowers, zoas, et)
300: Clams, LPS
170: Torches, hammers, alveapora , blah blah
…I broke it down like that to simplify flow and alk consumption, so I’m looking for a holy grail solution of cost & simplicty that doesn’t involve expensive 4pt dosers, dosing and ordering from BRS every month, basically something involving 2 dose heads and no commitment to weekly H2O changes…Also relevant is living in SC with summer 90’s, AC, closed windows, high CO2 and low pH issues…

I am a old school Kalkwasser user but don’t have the space for volumes of storage so I’m currently researching Stirrers, but nobody’s reviews have given me confidence to pick a brand/model ..
AFR seemed as attractive option up and until I depleted that $80 can and I’m thinking of somehow offsetting the consumption with Kalk and its pH boost as a side benefit…

Randys newer high pH 2pt formula is also in consideration but that sounds like it needs support with a trace solution or maybe more water changes, which I can’t support w/o a RO unit (for now I’m using carbon filters rain water for top off )

This input is giving me confidence to maybe pursue using Kalk with AFR to maybe offset some of that cost… I lost most of my stock moving so its also a wait and see approach …
……….. TRUNCATED QUOTE…….
Rough math:
$75 TM AFR 1600 g
1600 g makes 10 liters
10 liters = 10,000 milliliters
10000 / 110 = 90 days
$0.83 per day
$300 per year in TM AFR 1600g powder

Numbers more or less seemed correct. Single dosing head and a product what I believe is covering the majority of Ca, Alk, trace elements, and Mg. Using these numbers I decided to stay with TM AFR. I still have ESV 2 part to manually bump if needed and it does happen from time to time. The spare dosing head (I use Neptune DOS) is free and I've been using it for ESV's Transition Elements. I may move it over to LC though - not sure.

Kalk or one of RHF's blends may be cheaper and yield a ph buff and has a sound history behind it. In any case the wall of text above is my reason for using TM AFR. Early morning photo of my display as I work on cleaning the glass and blowing off the light fans.

Note: also know I don't point my success, or luck, to any one product be it lighting, or what I dose. I believe I would have the same display if I used kalk or a 2 or 3 part. I think that is important to clarify. I use TM AFR for ease of use and what I believe it brings to the table in a single product.

I just went to Kalk and am absolutely floored by how my tank has responded. Dialed down the AFR but still have 10ml a day going in. Seems like a perfect match between the two.

Yeah I considered ESV since it allegedly has that trace component, but thats back to 2 heads and I wanted to maybe reserved head also for either LC or H2O2 (been thinking of starting a thread looking for input on a dual LC & GFO regime)

@apb03 since you are doing the exact thing we are discussing, any chance you could expound? What kind of stability and consumption RU getting, tank params and livestock et

Edit add. So now I’m about to go back through the R2R history and research Randys High pH 2pt thing, Wondering if you get that anecdotal “clean” look & feel that a Kalk dosed tank “appears” to give you..but thats again, 2 heads & H2O change, but if cost justify it?

 

[apb03]

Yeah I considered ESV since it allegedly has that trace component, but thats back to 2 heads and I wanted to maybe reserved head also for either LC or H2O2 (been thinking of starting a thread looking for input on a dual LC & GFO regime)

@apb03 since you are doing the exact thing we are discussing, any chance you could expound? What kind of stability and consumption RU getting, tank params and livestock et

Edit add. So now I’m about to go back through the R2R history and research Randys High pH 2pt thing, Wondering if you get that anecdotal “clean” look & feel that a Kalk dosed tank “appears” to give you..but thats again, 2 heads & H2O change, but if cost justify it?

I'm still really early with the Kalk as it's been about a week so far. Here's some background info:

My tank is 130gallons total water volume. Before dosing Kalk, I was dosing 30ml AFR and my tank is 6 months old. I have a bunch of SPS frags (around 20 or so), and a good amount of LPS and Soft corals, as well.

I started my dose at 2ml/min and lowered my AFR dose to 15ml. My Alk rose quite quickly from 8.4 to about 9.6 in about 3 days. I wanted to keep my Alk there, so I lowered my AFR to 10ml and have now been stable at 9.3alk for the past 4 days.

Before adding Kalk, my PH was about 7.7 to 8.0 at peak, and now I'm around 8.1 to 8.4. I tested my Calcium and Magnesium the other day and it was about 550calc and 1350mag, but will keep an eye on it.

I'm testing daily to keep fine-tuning, but so far visually my SPS polyp extension improved and my Euphyllia looks extremely happy (anecdotal for certain, and not much time has passed).

My goal really was to boost my PH while keeping my levels equalized with AFR. I felt like AFR was great but lacked any sort of PH boost. To me that's the greatest downside of AFR.

 

[Doctorgori]

@apb03
pardon the interrogation but, how are you dosing the Kalk? you using a stirrer (brand?), slurry or st8 from the res ?

 

[apb03]

@apb03
pardon the interrogation but, how are you dosing the Kalk? you using a stirrer (brand?), slurry or st8 from the res ?

Now problem at all! I'm using the Deltec KM500 stirrer on a dedicated Versa pump from my RO reservoir.