RO/DI Waste Line Auto Shut Off

[anit77]

Hey Rev, I shot you a pm last night.

The ASOV has four ports. Two on one side handle the supply line that comes out of the last carbon block to the RO housing. The other 2nd side is connected to the output of the RO in between the RO and DI canisters. When the back pressure on the second side hits 40psi it cuts the flow on the supply side. Thus there is no pressure from the RO on, but the prefilter and carbon block(s) stay pressurized. This is how the float works as when filled it it closes and creates the back pressure.

For controlling via an Apex you can put a solenoid before the ASOV on the supply line or, like I did, put it on the main feed to the whole system. You can also replace the manual flush valve with a solenoid it can be controlled too. Lastly you can put another solenoid or two in the line coming out of the ro canister to handle the flushing on the initial high tds water from salt creep at initial startup. done this way the float sensors for low and high in your storage container(s) will control the whole process for you. Then the only thing you need to do is ocassionally monitor the system pressure and the tds of the water so you know when to change the filters out.

Here is my storage and mixing station.

This was early on the room is cleaned up a bit now.

 

[JBradford]

I really don't understand why there is so much debate over this.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/instructions/article/Installing-an-auto-shut-off-valve

Well I can answer for myself. Using these directions and 5 different ASOs my system doesn't shut off properly.

 

[anit77]

Well I can answer for myself. Using these directions and 5 different ASOs my system doesn't shut off properly.

What is the pressure of your water before the entire RO system, and are you using a booster pump?

 

[JBradford]

60 psi, no booster pump.

 

[anit77]

60 psi, no booster pump.

If the pressure after your RO filter drops below 40psi the ASOV will not function. A drop that far is not out of the question if the filters are clogged, especially the sediment & carbon filters. With the brs unit the pressure gauge should be after the prefilters. What does it read when the unit is running?

For reference. My water pressure is 96~100psi before the RODI filter. The pressure on my gauge with new prefilters is 78~80psi. When the those filters are clogged it drops down to 60 psi.

 

[lorkhan]

I use a water timer that i use for
My drip irrigation in my garden. Set the time and automatically shut off. Simple way to keep my floor dry.

 

[JBradford]

If the pressure after your RO filter drops below 40psi the ASOV will not function. A drop that far is not out of the question if the filters are clogged, especially the sediment & carbon filters. With the brs unit the pressure gauge should be after the prefilters. What does it read when the unit is running?

For reference. My water pressure is 96~100psi before the RODI filter. The pressure on my gauge with new prefilters is 78~80psi. When the those filters are clogged it drops down to 60 psi.

Now that I think about it mine is the same. I'll check when I get home as I need to make some water tonight.

 

[Areseebee]

Maybe because solenoids are thought to be electric?

Yeah fair enough, I didn't mean to make this about terminology.

Yes it will because that's what an asov is exactly designed to do. It's designed to shut off waste water when product water is shut off. Source water doesnt need to be shut off.

Ok, it doesn't really matter, but the ASOV (or solenoid as I was calling it) closes down the supply when the float builds pressure in the product line. I don't know what else to tell you, you can look at the link above from BRS or the one I posted earlier from Spectrapure, you need both a float and an ASOV (or solenoid). One or the other isn't enough. Also most every instruction tells you to shut down the supply (between carbon and RO membrane: http://spectrapure.com/huds/ASO-SYS.pdf, http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/instructions/article/Installing-an-auto-shut-off-valve) rather than the waste, but either should work, you'll just have to flush extra water when you first start the unit.

 

[JBradford]

Now that I think about it mine is the same. I'll check when I get home as I need to make some water tonight.

I stand corrected. My gauge was sitting at 80psi after pre filters.

 

[anit77]

I stand corrected. My gauge was sitting at 80psi after pre filters.

I don't know what to tell you then. I find it odd that 5 ASOV's were bad, are you absolutely sure you're installing it right? They only go in one way, if it's flipped it won't work.

 

[JBradford]

I don't know what to tell you then. I find it odd that 5 ASOV's were bad, are you absolutely sure you're installing it right? They only go in one way, if it's flipped it won't work.

I installed it per the BRS instructions. I'm going to be working on it this weekend since I'll have an extended break from school and work. Will report back any finding.

 

[Eggs]

Well I can answer for myself. Using these directions and 5 different ASOs my system doesn't shut off properly.

Same here, except tried 2; pressure issue

I'm looking at using this:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/ro-water-controller-tunze.html

 

[JBradford]

Same here, except tried 2; pressure issue

I'm looking at using this:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/ro-water-controller-tunze.html

That's cool. I'm a gadget guy at heart but for $208 I think I can stick with using my manual ball valve and timer on my phone for now.

 

[DLHDesign]

I don't think I've seen this covered yet, but has there been an example provided of needing to shut down the RO/DI system if the clean water reservoir fills OR a waste water reservoir fills? That's what I've got on my system, but I don't think it's working correctly...
Eg; In an effort to not waste water, I collect my waste water in a 55gal drum and pump it out to wherever I need it as I need it (kiddie pool, water the garden, etc.). My clean water also goes into a 55gal drum. As expected, the waste water fills before the clean water (assuming both are empty). So what I need is to shut down the input when the clean OR waste fills up. I've also got a booster pump. I've got two pressure switches for the pump.
My current solution is to use two float valves (one in each drum) and two ASO valves - one that shuts down the DI line if the waste line backs up (eg; the waste drum fills up); the other that shuts down the DI line if the clean backs up (eg; the clean drum fills up).

What I've noticed is that the waste drum filling up results in the clean line slowing down, but not stopping. Starting from two empty drums, if I leave it sit long enough, both will fill up. I would expect the clean drum to fill to 1/4-ish and stop until I empty out the waste drum. One thing I've noticed is that when the clean drum fills up, the entire system does shut down. Yet when the waste fills up, the clean continues to fill, though at a much slower rate. It also burns through DI resin much faster. I suspect that the closed-off waste line is resulting in everything being pushed through the DI resin, which causes it to deplete that much faster (TDS pre-DI is usually in the 40-80 range under normal operation).
The only thing I can't figure out is why the shut-off doesn't work... Perhaps I may have the waste-triggered ASO backwards? Or does having multiple ASO's in the same line not work right? Not sure... (I've not had a lot of time to fiddle with it, honestly; I've just been manually opening/closing everything lately.)

 

[LJC6780]

I don't think I've seen this covered yet, but has there been an example provided of needing to shut down the RO/DI system if the clean water reservoir fills OR a waste water reservoir fills? That's what I've got on my system, but I don't think it's working correctly...
Eg; In an effort to not waste water, I collect my waste water in a 55gal drum and pump it out to wherever I need it as I need it (kiddie pool, water the garden, etc.). My clean water also goes into a 55gal drum. As expected, the waste water fills before the clean water (assuming both are empty). So what I need is to shut down the input when the clean OR waste fills up. I've also got a booster pump. I've got two pressure switches for the pump.
My current solution is to use two float valves (one in each drum) and two ASO valves - one that shuts down the DI line if the waste line backs up (eg; the waste drum fills up); the other that shuts down the DI line if the clean backs up (eg; the clean drum fills up).

What I've noticed is that the waste drum filling up results in the clean line slowing down, but not stopping. Starting from two empty drums, if I leave it sit long enough, both will fill up. I would expect the clean drum to fill to 1/4-ish and stop until I empty out the waste drum. One thing I've noticed is that when the clean drum fills up, the entire system does shut down. Yet when the waste fills up, the clean continues to fill, though at a much slower rate. It also burns through DI resin much faster. I suspect that the closed-off waste line is resulting in everything being pushed through the DI resin, which causes it to deplete that much faster (TDS pre-DI is usually in the 40-80 range under normal operation).
The only thing I can't figure out is why the shut-off doesn't work... Perhaps I may have the waste-triggered ASO backwards? Or does having multiple ASO's in the same line not work right? Not sure... (I've not had a lot of time to fiddle with it, honestly; I've just been manually opening/closing everything lately.)

Omg I have read all sorts of threads looking for this exact thing! I am also trying to save my waste water in a brute can as well as the clean. I am in the process of upgrading to a double RO membrane and double DI unit now and expect my waste water to decrease but I still need a shut off on both cans!

After reading your reply I'm wondering if the clean water line is still running because it's before the waste line so there is not pressure from the clean being full to close the valve on that shut off???

I have a booster pump that has an electric shut off attached but I'm not exactly where it should go. Right after the pump and before the sed? I also have 1 auto shut off valve (the white ones). The way I'm hooking everything up is to have the in line go through the booster pump and into the sed and carbon blocks. Then out to the first RO. The waste from the 1st RO will go into the second RO then both clean lines will join and go into the double DI canisters. The waste from the second will go into the waste brute and the clean from the DI will go to the clean brute. I'm also unsure at this moment where the flow attachment (the white thing that says 550 on it) and the Y'd off ball valve that is right along side it go in this set up. They were coming off of the RO waste line originally so do I just move them as a whole to the second waste line? What do those do anyway?

Any help on getting the auto shut off for BOTH the clean and waste lines without doing some crazy complicated Apex system with multiple float valves and solenoids would be greatly appreciated. This is also in my garage and nowhere near my tank so you can also save all of the ATO setups.

Thanks!

 

[DLHDesign]

After reading your reply I'm wondering if the clean water line is still running because it's before the waste line so there is not pressure from the clean being full to close the valve on that shut off???

Here's a picture to show the current setup. It's been a while, so it may or may not be as I described it above:

So, to follow the water:
Everything comes in (red line) via the booster pump.
I've got a manual shut-off for when I don't want the system to run - after the booster, but before anything else.
Water goes through the sediment and two carbon.
Not shown in the pic is an auto-shut off (#1) that is set up to shut down the input line when the (joined) clean line backs up. I think this is installed by default on all RO/DI kits (I don't recall adding it, in other words).
Exiting the shut-off, it enters the lower membrane. The waste from this membrane is directed into the input of the second membrane (eg; hooked up in series).
The waste from the second is pushed into an auto-flush flow restrictor before it passes through a pressure switch.
The clean lines of both membranes are joined together and pass through the auto-shut off mentioned above into another auto-shutoff valve (#2). This valve is setup to shut off the clean line when the waste line backs up.
The clean water line passes through a pressure switch after the auto-shutoff before it passes into the D/I resin.
I have float switch shut-offs in both my clean and waste water tanks.

SO, the way it works (and it does seem to work) is like this;
- When the system turns on (and every hr while running), the auto-flush will do it's thing and flush the membranes (extending their life). It'll also regulate the pressure.
- When the waste water fills up (usually happens first), the float switch in that tank will increase the line pressure there. This will trigger shutoff #2, which causes the clean line to back up, which causes shutoff #1 to trigger, which closes the incoming line.
- When the clean tank fills up (after I drain the waste container into the kiddie pool, usually), it will trigger shutoff #1, closing the incoming line. I don't worry about closing the waste line in this case as there's no new water coming in anyways.
- In either case, the pressure switches are connected in serial. If either triggers, they will shut off the pump. So whether the waste line fills up or the clean line does, the pump will also shut off.

It's confusing as all get-out to set up. There's lots of things that can be connected backwards and nothing will work right as a result. But once you get it all there, it works like a charm to provide waste water capture with an auto-shutoff and booster pump.

They were coming off of the RO waste line originally so do I just move them as a whole to the second waste line? What do those do anyway?

Those are pressure regulators. I ended up not using one due to the auto-flush taking care of it (see above). If you don't use the auto-flush (which is possible), you'll want one that matches your system's needs. Which generally means one that is HIGHER than the pressure switches that turn off the pump; otherwise those will never trigger and your pump will never turn off.
Note that the valve is used to flush the membrane. Flushing membranes seems to help, so it's worth doing. Ultimately, the flush-benefit is why I added the auto-flush into the system. It uses the same power brick as the booster pump, so nothing added to plug in.

 

[LJC6780]

So I got it all hooked up. It's an upgraded 75gph to 150. Double 75 gph membranes and double DI. Clean water output is more than the waste now!!! I thought the waste would decrease but I didn't know it would make it less than the clean!

I had also moved the shut off membrane to the waste water line but now since the clean will fill up faster I'm just going to put it back on the clean side.

BUT, when I stopped the waste water line, the pump went off almost immediately but the clean water kept flowing even though it was set to shut off the water before the first RO. So I may either need to try to clean the membranes or get a new one altogether.

 

[DLHDesign]

Double 75 gph membranes

Depending upon your R/O exit TDS, you may want to consider upping this to dual 150gph membranes. With the booster pump, you shouldn't have any problem getting to the needed pressure. If you're exit TDS is already low, then you shouldn't need to do so.