Running Out of Time, Help Needed

[BigRich]

Hi,
I purchased a pair of mated ORA clowns 2/6/18. They were immediately placed in my 10 gallon qt. They started eating the second day they were in there(I don't try to feed on the first day). One of the clowns always seemed more aggressively eating. The other clown just didn't seem to be a typical clownfish, ie eat anything and everything. I started to notice that this clownfish had white string like poo. So after around the 7th day in qt I decided to treat the tank with API General Cure. At this time both clownfish were eating well/acting normal/fine breathing and I was loading the frozen food with vitachem/selcon/viatality. After 24hrs I notice the clownfish is having labored, rapid breathing. 48 hrs later same symptoms but no interest in eating plus isn't swimming much, just laying in corner. At this point the 48hrs of API is up so I do a water change(dropping the salinity down to 1.016) and run carbon. Next 24 hrs clownfish still isn't getting any better, all symptoms are the same. No signs of ich/velvet on body, no liaisons/etc. Today I go with a freshwater dip. Clownfish makes it through dip, back into qt. It's been 6hrs since freshwater dip and no signs of any improvement. I'm at a loss because I don't see any behavior/etc that guides me on what to treat for. All this time the other clownfish is fine, breathing normal/eating/etc.

Kicking around thoughts of maybe treating with prazipro, or KickIch or paraguard(even though I don't think its a external parasite). Anybody with any thoughts of a treatment? Thank you! Rich

 

[Daltrey]

You should have been treating with metroplex and focus. I would do several small water changes over the next few days. Also pick up several different frozen foods like mysis and different pellet foods to see if you can get him to start eating.

 

[BigRich]

Hi,
From my reading it seemed like treating with API was the best bet due to attacking multiple internal parasites/etc. I have had metro/focus the whole time so it's a real disappointment. I have every pellet(I feel lol) and have been trying mysis/brine/rod's food mixes but nothing. Should I just broadcast the metro in the qt at this point? Everything was fine(ie fish were both eating/swimming/being active) but after about 12-16hrs of API treatment the one clownfish's health declined rapidly. You think that was a coincidence or maybe whatever is going on internally got aggravated by the API General treatment? Really been frustrating because I have been trying to be better with my QT skills. I guess from my reading I felt I was making the better choice of API over prazi or metro, just felt from reading it treated more and would cover my bases. Looks like not in this situation. Thanks again for any and all input, Rich

 

[Greenstreet.1]

? After the first 48 did you dose GC again

 

[Humblefish]

@BigRich Are you dosing GC into the water or food soaking the medication? The latter is the best way to treat internal parasites.

 

[BigRich]

Hi,
No I didn't because after reading posts here, humblefish and other members stated that the second treatment after 48hrs wasn't necessary. To follow up with a second treatment a week later. I remember reading the thread on here just can't find it right now. I'm sure, if I misread or I'm incorrect, I will be corrected but I'm pretty sure that was everyones recommendation when using API GC. Unless I missed something in the thread, which is always possible. Hopefully I didn't make another mistake... Thank you, Rich

 

[BigRich]

Hi,
I didn't treat with the food as the clownfish that isn't doing well is not eating. Interestingly when the clown was eating I was feeding them the Spectrum HEX internal parasite pellets. Guess they didn't work because they were eating them for 3 days...

 

[EmdeReef]

Agree with water changes and if it was my fish I’d give it a short break to recoup and then consider treating, ideally get it back to eating. If it indeed has an internal parasite it’s not necessarily an emergency as they often have internal parasites their whole life in the wild.

Seems like a lot of stress plus with so many additives in a 10g tank could be having big water quality issues.

 

[Dom274]

So after around the 7th day in qt I decided to treat the tank with API General Cure. At this time both clownfish were eating well/acting normal/fine breathing and I was loading the frozen food with vitachem/selcon/viatality.

Why?????????? The fish were acting normal, so you decided to treat the tank? That doesn't make sense. Isolated, white stringy poo doesn't necessarily mean anything. Like you said, the fish were acting normal and eating well.

Kicking around thoughts of maybe treating with prazipro, or KickIch or paraguard(even though I don't think its a external parasite). Anybody with any thoughts of a treatment? Thank you! Rich

You're joking right? No mention of the fish having ick, but we are now considering treating them for it? I don't mean to be harsh, but it sounds like you are the one causing the issues... The fish sound healthy. Stop randomly treating the water, give them maybe a week to recover and then get them in their permenant home asap. The stress reduction from getting them out of QT will be more beneficial than any medicine you can give them.

 

[Humblefish]

Isolated, white stringy poo doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Fish poop isn't white unless worms are living in the intestines. Now, whether or not the fish can survive that (and for how long) depends upon the genus/species of the offending organism, health/hardiness of the fish, etc. Most fish can live with tapeworms for quite some time, whereas diplomonads wreck havoc quickly.

 

[EmdeReef]

Fish poop isn't white unless worms are living in the intestines. Now, whether or not the fish can survive that (and for how long) depends upon the genus/species of the offending organism, health/hardiness of the fish, etc. Most fish can live with tapeworms for quite some time, whereas diplomonads wreck havoc quickly.

Thanks for explaining further! I do worry the cure could kill the patient at this point given that the fish is not eating and appears severely stressed only after the initial treatment which may or may not have been properly administered.

Not to hijack the thread but can’t pass on a learning opportunity
I’m not as familiar with diplomonads infection in ornamental fish beyond hexamitiasis, and have seen Spironucleus salmonicida on salmon farms. Although, it usually resulted in a more systemic infection. What other in the group do you see in aquarium fish and what are some of the symptoms or does it remain localized to white poop? Thanks!

 

[Vahanyos]

I agree with the other poster... 10g tank and you're beefing up too much crap in there. Give it a break in my opinion, small water changes and just observe... It's getting too stressed out imo

 

[Dom274]

Fish poop isn't white unless worms are living in the intestines. Now, whether or not the fish can survive that (and for how long) depends upon the genus/species of the offending organism, health/hardiness of the fish, etc. Most fish can live with tapeworms for quite some time, whereas diplomonads wreck havoc quickly.

White poop means worms 100% of the time? Is the OP absolutely sure it was white poop? What about grey poop?

Yes, most of the time white poop means worms, but not always. I would say the next step would be to watch for behavioral changes, which the OP said was normal up until he treated the tank.

 

[TheEngineer]

@BigRich I strongly encourage you to follow any and all advice @Humblefish gives you. He has saved countless fish (including my own) through his treatment plans suggested here and his approaches are conservatively cautious to address common issues effectively and safely. I prefer to keep things simple. If it quacks like a duck, I don’t wait to see if it is a dog.

Do a water change, run some carbon but start treating as suggested.

 

[Gmj4409]

+1. Looking at my own fish as I type & I see multiple Humblefish saves.

 

[Humblefish]

What other in the group do you see in aquarium fish and what are some of the symptoms or does it remain localized to white poop?

Hexamita is the most common parasitic diplomonad found in ornamental fish. Fortunately (for us), it is more prevalent in FW & brackish fish than SW.

Hexamita has one other symptom (in addition to white stringy poop) which makes it uniquely identifiable: Lesions will sometimes appear on the fish’s head. The lesions are caused when the worms have reached the sensory pores on the head where they cause the surrounding tissue to decay. To my knowledge, no other genus of intestinal worm does this and all others produce just white stringy poo as the primary symptom.

Simple tapeworms can be very mild in fish; even praziquantel will eliminate them (whereas only metronidazole eradicates Hexamita genus worms.) I know a lady who had a clownfish with white stringy poo for over 9 years! I confirmed tapeworms via scope ID and she decided it was finally time to treat the fish.

Nematodes/roundworms are also pretty common in marine fish.

 

[BigRich]

Hexamita is the most common parasitic diplomonad found in ornamental fish. Fortunately (for us), it is more prevalent in FW & brackish fish than SW.

Hexamita has one other symptom (in addition to white stringy poop) which makes it uniquely identifiable: Lesions will sometimes appear on the fish’s head. The lesions are caused when the worms have reached the sensory pores on the head where they cause the surrounding tissue to decay. To my knowledge, no other genus of intestinal worm does this and all others produce just white stringy poo as the primary symptom.

Simple tapeworms can be very mild in fish; even praziquantel will eliminate them (whereas only metronidazole eradicates Hexamita genus worms.) I know a lady who had a clownfish with white stringy poo for over 9 years! I confirmed tapeworms via scope ID and she decided it was finally time to treat the fish.

Nematodes/roundworms are also pretty common in marine fish.

Thank you for your valuable input. I have a update, as well I would like to clear up a few questions/inferences other posters made:

1) The only medicine that had been put into the water was API General Cure. One treatment.
2) The reason I decided upon this was due to the fish having white poo(yes it was white, think whiteout color, not grey/etc) & the fact the fish wasn't as active as the other clownfish(mated pair). The clownfish with the issue just wasn't behaving the same. I've been in the hobby over 15yrs and have had clownfish before. The sick clownfish was showing other symptoms like not eating aggressively, barely eating(ie would eat 1 pellet to 7 by the healthy clown). As I saw this, I wanted to get ahead of any health issue. This is why I qt, to observe and then treat.
3) After the 48hrs of API GC treatment the tank had a water change and carbon was started to run. So at the time of my posts, their was no medicine in the water(unless very small levels were still active & hadn't been removed in the days since carbon was running)
4) My mistake was going with API GC versus metro in the early stages. I thought the API GC would help but it did not.

Update & Most Important:
The clownfish last night looked horrible. It was laying on its side, not moving, and breathing extremely rapidly. At this point I felt I had two ways to go, water change/continue to run carbon or try metro. I read on seachem's site that metro can be dosed directly into the water, even though as others pointed out, the best way to treat is a mix with food/focus. The clown wasn't eating so I decided to dose the tank with metro before I went to sleep as I felt doing nothing would be death for the fish. I must admit, I still felt the clownfish wasn't going to make it, it looked way too far gone...

Well almost full 24hrs later, the clownfish is now swimming around actively! Spending most of his/her time establishing dominance again with the other clownfish. Breathing has greatly improved, still a little fast, but night and day better. Not once today was the fish laying or "sitting" on the bottom. It is swimming actively throughout the water column, even chasing around the other clown. Only negative to report was no eating of a mix of mysis/brine today. It was soaked in seachem's garlic product beforehand but not much interest.

So my question is now, where do I go from here. Do I continue metro in the qt? Do I discontinue in 48hrs run carbon and water change? One final thing to consider is I noticed when the fish was swimming around today, it has a very fine(think single hair strand) coming out of its anus. It really isn't that white color as before, more clear colored. So I'm not sure what to do with my next step. I'm glad I went with my gut and treated with metro last night as I truly believe it is the reason the fish is alive today. Like I said, just about 24hrs ago, the fish was laying flat on the bottom, no movement, breathing rapidly. If it wasn't the metro then it must be a miracle lol

Thank you all for your input and advice. Rich

 

[Humblefish]

@BigRich I recommend you continue dosing metro into the QT. If the fish starts eating, try soaking metro in the fish food and also use Seachem Focus to bind the medication.

 

[melypr1985]

@BigRich I recommend you continue dosing metro into the QT. If the fish starts eating, try soaking metro in the fish food and also use Seachem Focus to bind the medication.

agree ^^ As soon as you get him/her eating, get the metro into the food combined with Focus to bind it. Keep going the metro route... the fish will drink the water it's swimming in and some of the medication will make it's way to the intestines which is better than nothing, but not as good as eating it.

 

[BigRich]

Thank you for your responses. I will continue the treatment. As you both mentioned, the biggest key/hurdle now, is to get him/her eating again. Once that happens I will really feel like something was accomplished. I will also keep this thread updated as to what is going on with the clownfish. Hopefully it can help someone else that may encounter a similar situation. It was truly startling how fast the clownfish's health deteriorated and then improved just over a 24hr period. Just checked on the clowns before the post, still breathing a little fast compared to the "healthy clown" but night and day better than last night. Hopefully will eat tomorrow which then will allow me to medicate the food. I will treat the water to the metro instructions until eating happens, like you mentioned, some medicine getting in is better than none! Thanks again for everyone's time and help. Rich