Sandbed Worries

[Nigel35]

I while back I transferred my tank to a new home and did not replace the sand bed. I have heard mixed reviews on this issue but would like to hear in depth what the cause and effects are when not changing a sand bed. I only moved over a tank from one location to another, I didn't upgrade or transfer. I had run into several issues over the last few years since the move and am wondering if this is a participating issue?

Second question,

I have filtered out a lot of sand due to cyano and other algae issues so that in some areas it is quite shallow. I have considered and may want to move forward with the idea of building back a rich and healthy sand bed once again. There seems to be quite the confusion on this forum about the rinse no rinse way about doing this. If someone could comment on of all this that would be greatly appreciated. I have a cursory understanding of the issues and benefits but an in depth answer would be helpful. What I would prefer to create is a healthy and thriving sand bed free of any unwanted materials wether that be rinsing the existing sand and new sand, etc.

If you see any concerns or want to comment go right ahead.


Cheers,

Nigel

 

[brandon429]

Don’t take someone’s opinion on the matter it’ll be based solely on their tank, here’s what happens for seven years in others tanks

you should rinse it for sure, even if you change to new sand:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

scan that thread for invasion issues, dinos issues, clouding issues, re cycles, there are none

those events only happen as an instant or delayed reaction to non rinsing. So to skip rinsing takes a chance, and to rinse produces that work above. Since there isn’t a sand skip rinse thread thread of sixty pages, you’d default to that technique above until someone makes a no rinse work thread.

 

[brandon429]

People advise you to skip rinsing not because they like clouding, but because they dont want you to kill sandbed bacteria


but how did things go down where for seven years we rinsed all sand in tap water? Did the bacteria matter / did the entrants enjoy cloudlessness even though they lost bacteria? Yes.



sandbed bacteria aren’t required they are bioload for a tank, so being free of them never causes harm. If a reef has ten fish and you cull it down to six fish, nothing bad happens at reducing bioload in fact the remaining occupants benefit from increased feed availability and less resource competition. The system benefits by having less rate of waste sinking etc


sandbed bacteria were once thought of as required, that’s where non rinsing comes from, that old rule which is now found untrue and shown that way above. Rinse the sand in prep, order a bag of pods from algae barn, done. Diversity, instated.

 

[Nigel35]

Don’t take someone’s opinion on the matter it’ll be based solely on their tank, here’s what happens for seven years in others tanks

you should rinse it for sure, even if you change to new sand:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

scan that thread for invasion issues, dinos issues, clouding issues, re cycles, there are none

those events only happen as an instant or delayed reaction to non rinsing. So to skip rinsing takes a chance, and to rinse produces that work above. Since there isn’t a sand skip rinse thread thread of sixty pages, you’d default to that technique above until someone makes a no rinse work thread.

I appreciate the reply brandon429. I read in depth your thread and other threads which pertain to this topic. I tend to agree the the Live Rock tends to do most of the heavy lifting and the sand bed is a house for all kinds of junk although it can house good critters and bacteria but the comparison between LR and SB is nothing. I also read a lot about detritus etc. and it gave me a bit of a fright. My current tank is LOADED with detritus... LOADED I say. This includes the live rock and sand bed which similarly is stocked with detritus and other waste. So dirty that when I lift a small piece of rock there is about a square inch of detritus and other crap under it. Its a given... my tank is pretty dirty lets admit. Say I want to do the rip clean?

Currently my tank is doing excellent. So excellent, that I am tempted to just leave it and forget about it. But I know that this will undoubtedly cause some issues down the road and it needs to be fixed.

Here is the million dollar question: HOW should I best go about doing this deep clean which would include removing detritus from the rocks, adding rock to build a better aquascape and potentially changing out the sand bed due to the fact that the existing one looks like garbage? My great fear is that this tank which I have tried so hard to get back on track and finally have resurrected is going to go down the pipe holes after any sudden changes. What would the issues be of just leaving it be?

Nigel

 

[Nigel35]

I while back I transferred my tank to a new home and did not replace the sand bed. I have heard mixed reviews on this issue but would like to hear in depth what the cause and effects are when not changing a sand bed. I only moved over a tank from one location to another, I didn't upgrade or transfer. I had run into several issues over the last few years since the move and am wondering if this is a participating issue?

Appreciate the reply but this question has gone unanswered. There have been times where I have kicked up the sand bed by adding a goby or just routine cleaning and not soon after whole colonies of 30+ head Euphullyia die of BJD, corals dying and not doing so well etc. While I know that BJD is partly due to stress, infection etc., then susceptible to Helicostoma nonatum protozoan and how my other coral troubles could be unrelated... is this a huge issue that I need to fix i.e. the sand bed? Or is it best left alone?

 

[Nigel35]

Bump....

 

[brandon429]

Hey just getting back in. I must include this massive work thread below as a warning, as a detail relay (see how we started off thinking sandbed was the cause then in later pages we find a clear standout disease vector meaning sand may not have been the cause) and also as a procedure for very large tank disassembly jobs.

EMERGENCY - 265 reef

I need some help I have a 265 Reef that’s been up and running for 20 years About two months ago I decide to do some aqua scape with my old rocks. I took about a third of the rocks out broke them up glue them back together. Nothing was in the system it was done totally outside of the system. I...

www.reef2reef.com

reasons I think it’s pertinent to your issue: his tank and corals were fine, and very aged and twenty years of detritus wasn’t doing much. What seemed to be fish loss from partial disturbance cleaning (which I think is very risky, in my links above we loathe partial disturbance work and replace it with total takedown surgery) may very well easily be tied to adding an unprepped regal tang a few months ago, which was disease symptomatic at the time we can see in rustys posts in his thread history.


that thread, contrasted with the safe outcome collection above gives you a macro picture of the good and bad of messing with beds in tanks that are doing fine.


can you post a full tank shot of your reef here those are so important, they lend unspoken details we can really use in preps long before any action is taken. I cannot immediately by recollection or pattern interaction link jelly diseases/ protozoan issues with aged deep sandbeds and matter of fact the inherent diversity of microorganisms they contain may help in suppressing the issues. I like strong UV for those kinds of ongoing challenges because nobody’s tank is harmed by quality uv, nobody’s tank crashed from it and nobody gets sick installing uv like sandbed work may cause.

if we decide the sand replacement or rinse is needed based on preps and pics then we have a guaranteed safe way to get that done, just as if we are moving homes.

I understand the concern about preemptive action vs getting caught in a eutrophic downslide so along the way in preps and brainstorm related to your pics we will draw from old tanks like Paul’s who also tend to store up waste vs rip clean. He maintains top to bottom oxygenation of his waste detritus, he has reverse under gravel filtration. Most other sandbeds are oxygenated on top and ? in the middle and bottom zones, thats where risk comes from unanticipated rock slides, powerhead dislodges, unplanned physical events. Left stratified we can see from Rustys tank above that detritus may not cause any type of harm.

 

[Nigel35]

can you post a full tank shot of your reef here those are so important, they lend unspoken details we can really use in preps long before any action is taken. I cannot immediately by recollection or pattern interaction link jelly diseases/ protozoan issues with aged deep sandbeds and matter of fact the inherent diversity of microorganisms they contain may help in suppressing the issues. I like strong UV for those kinds of ongoing challenges because nobody’s tank is harmed by quality uv, nobody’s tank crashed from it and nobody gets sick installing uv like sandbed work may cause.

 

[Nigel35]

Interesting... I'll have to do more research on that protozoan issue...

 

[brandon429]

Thats exactly what we need to see, unique presentations from your reef that set it apart from others. So glad that’s not 295 gallons, whew.

that being said, those corals were brought up carefully and to lose any of them would be devastating and unacceptable. Some very sensitive ones are in tow as well.

no immediate action needed but my ramp up brain storms based on pics are these:


-that is what a real reef looks like to scuba divers. I’ve seen grand cayman down at thirty feet and it’s exactly like that, some dispersed growths tbd on the sandbed, that way conchs have something to eat, and some growths in between corals affixed to rocks that may not be the whorled coralline we want but nonetheless grow in pristine good waters so clean up crews and parrotfish have something to eat. The look we want to attain where those growths are missing is unnatural - params aren’t causing any issues for you at all that’s what a reef grows so grazers will physically cause the balance ideal. There are no parameters we should alter, your params have grown antlers out of sps and caused finicky gonis to open wide. Your feeding, it’s all perfect hold course.


- we can do an effective test model of one removable rock which I think you’ll like since it’s not a whole tank move, we’d save that for last.

if it’s possible lift out one single easy test rock and set it on the counter, if a coral is attached that’s ok just dribble or spray saltwater on it, use a knife point to target dig in and lightly but effectively rasp up and out any attached invaders. ID isn’t particularly important as we should not alter tank params around given various strains of cells, it’s not worth the insult to corals who clearly like being in this setting. We are physically learning about how the invader attaches etc. be rinsing off the dislodged teased out invasion and rinse away down the sink with saltwater, make the test rock physically free of its attachments by metal knife tip scrapes. This mimics effective rasping of ocean grazers we can’t fit in that tank. Last step: find a creative way to dab or dribble common 3% peroxide on the former invasion spots you dislodged, avoiding any coral. This is an ideal and safe spot kill technique for reefing, best I’ve ever seen. Rinse off after a few mins burn and set this one totally cleaned detailed rock back in the tank and we watch to see how well it stays clean or takes on new growths.


-eventually we can decide to rip clean the sand to get it free or perhaps just topically siphon it all out then you run a sterilizer temporarily to catch and burn invader cells before they remass

-that appears to be a very brightly lit system all the way around. Not windex blue but white-heavy spectrum and that too can select for invasions, at some point We can also brainstorm simple light intensity and color changes as a harmless trial.

 

[brandon429]

The sandbed is so thin I rate it as zero risk for the system overall


it’s fine grained, this makes detritus ride on top more than sink in, I rate that sandbed as not risky like the example thread above it’ll be more oxygenated than a funked out old five inch dsb.


Im seeing palythoas, that presents handling risks that indeed make that warning thread a valid read. If that reef was in my home I wouldn’t take any special preps, I’ve owned them before, but when advising remote jobs and Rusty recently scaring my pants off those need to be assessed in planning.

 

[Nigel35]

I appreciate the replies

Using that small piece of rock would be to determine how to best remove the detritus and other materials off the rock and thereby purify it if I understand correctly?

Just to clarify invasions would mean bacterial or a invasive species causing harm to the tank?

Since the sand bed is so thin should I consider enriching it?

-eventually we can decide to rip clean the sand to get it free or perhaps just topically siphon it all out then you run a sterilizer temporarily to catch and burn invader cells before they remass

Or is it just Fien the way it is?

The Lighting is currently running under a daylight schedule of whites at 90%, Blues 100%, Greens 100%, reds at 100%. The lights are pretty cheep (current USA) so I naturally have to crank them to get any results. And believe me I have had excellent results.

these Paly's are going to be the death of me I know that. I would love nothing more than to scrap them once and for all. I've tried manual removal works for a little bit but they grow back. I'm currently working on a more refined method of removal.

 

[Nigel35]

I'm all for slow and steady but can't help think that I might be delaying some crash in the future... I do like the idea of the rock scrape.

Is it possible that my tank is doing well and its just that it is dirtier? I'm seeing immaculate tanks that look picture perfectly clean and wondering how I achieve that without swooping my success...

 

[Nigel35]

here was a picture of my tank in April of 2020 and there is some striking differences. The tank looks really clean almost to clean. Granted it was right after the move, hence all the coralline dying etc.

 

[Nigel35]

Any thoughts?

 

[Nano sapiens]

I while back I transferred my tank to a new home and did not replace the sand bed. I have heard mixed reviews on this issue but would like to hear in depth what the cause and effects are when not changing a sand bed...

You seem to be putting lots of thought into the condition of your sand bed, which is a very good thing for the long term health of your system.

Instead of producing a sand bed novel, I'll just say that there is more than one way to skin this sand bed cleaning cat (so to speak). Some prefer the relatively quick 'Rip Clean' method while others prefer a less immediate stepped approach (cleaning small sections of the sand bed over time). Which one to use can depend on the severity of the issue and the amount of patience of the aquarist.

Of note: The current condition of your sand bed is identical to what I have encountered twice with my rather old system. I could trace the issue back to increased fish bio load (and the resulting increase in nutrients) without sufficient export to adequately balance the system. It took a concerted many months long effort (yes, I'm the very patient reefer type) of regular detritus removal to rid the system of this plague, but it is ultimately effective.

 

[brandon429]

I’ll have to stew on it bit to get more brainstorms

if we rip clean it, it’ll look like that prior pic above which also looks nice

I do not feel there is an impending crash risk such as waking up to white corals one day…if those are common dinos then coral encroachment slowly is the risk but as a tradeoff it’s not hard to clean that light attachment off corals it may be smothering, we should do the test rock ASAP to get an idea how well it responds to manual forced removal and how quickly it reattaches

 

[brandon429]

NanoS I think that sounds prudent to consider because this doesn’t seem risky to clean and siphon in portions. That’s not a tank killing black pitted sandbed at all

For sure I think after cleaning however it’s caused, uv can help bigtime here to slow regrowth.

 

[brandon429]

I really like the idea of incremental assessments and not a huge takedown surgery right off the bat, the corals are happy in this arrangement

an opportunist got a foothold, that’s what makes this an elite hobby

 

[Nano sapiens]

I really like the idea of incremental assessments and not a huge takedown surgery right off the bat, the corals are happy in this arrangement

an opportunist got a foothold, that’s what makes this an elite hobby

I have to say that the eradication of the bloom caused by this organism was not a walk in the park. The first episode took 3-4 months of bi-weekly cleaning (Clownfish grew to full adult size in my small nano) and the second 8-9 months (retailer sent me too many fish in a shipment and me thinking "It'll be okay, I have a mature system that can handle it")