Sandbed Worries

[Nigel35]

So we go with the small rock test which I am going to follow up on. Then from their go for detritus removal? How about adding a little sand? Its pretty bare thin...

 

[brandon429]

wait on sand till we get the invasion stopped, that’s capping off waste moved from the prior system

Fully agreed Ralph based on readings I see in the nuisance algae forum regarding repeat guiding efforts

Folks are used to expect one pass fixes but these communal mats tbd species / use energy to remass unique to each system and its supports in my opinion, and it ranges tank to tank in what it takes to exhaust them but it’s something repeated and more resolved than the mass. I think it’s dinos off cursory appearance and color.

I know the going mode this last couple years was to boost N or P in relation to what non digital test kits say (throwing darts at a board target param number across the room is more accurate?) but I’m seeing about 5% fix rates and 95% GHA infestation trade offs even if the dinos recede, and usually mixes right in with them. I can’t recommend vibrant here, corals are too nice to risk, I can’t recommend fluconazole where not as harmful is indicated for plant battles not monerans or flagellates

 

[brandon429]

What about doing the test rock, stick a siphon hose in there and siphon up all the top growth on the sand and if some sand comes out thats fine, we can put clean rinsed sand back later.

in a siphon cleaning run, make the sandbed free of the growths fully, some will still be left on the rocks that weren’t part of test rasping, but if you noticed the sand kicking up clouding during this cleaning effort I’d stop and assess the system next day and make sure nothing was toxic.

I wouldn’t put back sand on this same pass it’ll be capping off waste and leftover invasions and these incremental cleanings may slowly guide the tank to bare bottom anyway. You can’t harm the system by light siphon work and water changes matching temp and salinity to the current system, plus we learn about ability to regroup along the way.

 

[Nigel35]

wait on sand till we get the invasion stopped, that’s capping off waste moved from the prior system

Fully agreed Ralph based on readings I see in the nuisance algae forum regarding repeat guiding efforts

Folks are used to expect one pass fixes but these communal mats tbd species / use energy to remass unique to each system and its supports in my opinion, and it ranges tank to tank in what it takes to exhaust them but it’s something repeated and more resolved than the mass. I think it’s dinos off cursory appearance and color.

I know the going mode this last couple years was to boost N or P in relation to what non digital test kits say (throwing darts at a board target param number across the room is more accurate?) but I’m seeing about 5% fix rates and 95% GHA infestation trade offs even if the dinos recede, and usually mixes right in with them. I can’t recommend vibrant here, corals are too nice to risk, I can’t recommend fluconazole where not as harmful is indicated for plant battles not monerans or flagellates

I apologize but I am rather confused... how could it be dinoflagellates? My Nitrates are in the 2-6ppm range and phosphates are at 0.06. Both tested with Hanna's and a very rigorous testing process ensuring proper cleaning and addition of reagents.

 

[Nigel35]

I'll proceed with those steps.

What about doing the test rock, stick a siphon hose in there and siphon up all the top growth on the sand and if some sand comes out thats fine, we can put clean rinsed sand back later.

in a siphon cleaning run, make the sandbed free of the growths fully, some will still be left on the rocks that weren’t part of test rasping, but if you noticed the sand kicking up clouding during this cleaning effort I’d stop and assess the system next day and make sure nothing was toxic.

I wouldn’t put back sand on this same pass it’ll be capping off waste and leftover invasions and these incremental cleanings may slowly guide the tank to bare bottom anyway. You can’t harm the system by light siphon work and water changes matching temp and salinity to the current system, plus we learn about ability to regroup along the way.

I Agree here. I would never add sand immediately as that would defeat the purpose, I was curious to see where that task falls in the grand scheme of things. When doing previous cleanings of the sand bed their have been kick ups and great matter spitting around when I go deep into it. However when just removing the top level their hasn't been an issue .

 

[brandon429]

Those params have nothing to do with opportunistic hitchhikers those controls are loosely, loosely associated with dinos controls in some systems

dinos invasions are found in reefs across the param spectrum and in no way does the dinos control thread have more than 20-30% wins across 700 pages instating those params into dinos systems. most systems with them simply have a struggle, I classify them as the toughest invasion in reefing to beat, just not for pico reefs as dinos cannot beat rip cleans in 1-2 gallon systems


pico reefs are so easy to rip that dinos don’t stand a chance. It’s very very hard to find pico reefs with dinos, most pico owners know to rip clean as the first response and permit no mass aggregation but this is hard for large tanks understandably

 

[Nano sapiens]

I'll proceed with those steps.

I Agree here. I would never add sand immediately as that would defeat the purpose, I was curious to see where that task falls in the grand scheme of things. When doing previous cleanings of the sand bed their have been kick ups and great matter spitting around when I go deep into it. However when just removing the top level their hasn't been an issue .

Many different species of dinoflagellates and so there can be different conditions in which the different species can bloom. There are also different types of diatoms, so they are another possible candidate (although they tend to be limited by lowering of silicates). In my case, I could stir the top layer of sand to make it clean and within a few hours it would be coca-cola colored again. You can try to get a positive ID with a microscope if you are really interested.

My interest was simply in eliminated the bloom, whatever it was. I knew my system was sequestering nutrients due to the heavy feeding (even though PO4 and NO3 were reef normal). So sustained regular removal of the organisms themselves and cleaning of excess detritus via vacuuming was the most obvious plan of attack.

One word of caution: if you haven't been vacuuming regularly start off any deep cleaning in smaller sections (mentally dividing the sand bed into 1/8th slices, for example, and doing one a week...the dirtier the sand bed, the smaller the sections). Carefully observe the effects on the corals afterwards and adjust if necessary.

 

[Nigel35]

Rock test is underway. Will post updates as things develop.

I do have many fine tune microscopes on hand to get a positive confirmation on wether it is dinoflagellates or diatoms.

Purchased some F aptasia and am going to conduct a small experiment to see wether this may ward off the Polythoas. I plan to get a small section of them zapped with the stuff let settle and then siphon it out as many have done before.

 

[Nigel35]

After some investigation I received a positive Dino confirmation after looking under the microscope. I'm hesitant to chemically kill the invasion but not sure what other way there is to remove them?

What I have noticed with the rock is that when being completely scrubbed down the algae comes back within a week or so.

 

[Nigel35]

I don't believe that my protopalys are the kind with toxins. I've been able to cut them off the rock and scrub the rock down in a bucket with no ill effects on me or the tank.

 

[brandon429]

Why does your rock prep / scrub not include the peroxide step on the clean portions, with that it doesn’t grow back in a week, it grows back in a week if that aspect is skipped / too much hesitation here considering for fifty pages we have good outcomes. I’ll let you guys kick around some ideas.

 

[Nigel35]

Now that we have identified invaders in the sandbed i.e. Dinos, what is the best way to proceed?

 

[brandon429]

Well, for one there's the no hesitation rip clean. The other option is all hesitation based and will bring you a succession of gha then cyano most likely, and if you're lucky it's fixed by June.

The rip clean expects you'll need future continued access to remove strands that regrow, and aligns the tank for this access. The hesitation to await ID and permit new added mass too has a price and that's repeat cleaning work. When you refuse the growth vs ever let it get a foothold the work is less, but still required to win.


The hesitation method directly lets your tank get taken over, but saves you work as it grows. I get the strong feeling you're about to select the June option

 

[brandon429]

Ideal method: rip clean it then from the clean, uninvaded condition, sparkly clean, try the various suppression options and if those don't work and new mass begins, remove it- and continue working from the clean vs invaded condition.


that's opposite vs being totally invaded

In one option you set the rules for the tank and it complies

And in the other option the tank sets its own compliance timeline, if any. All a matter of will

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Thats exactly what we need to see, unique presentations from your reef that set it apart from others. So glad that’s not 295 gallons, whew.

that being said, those corals were brought up carefully and to lose any of them would be devastating and unacceptable. Some very sensitive ones are in tow as well.

no immediate action needed but my ramp up brain storms based on pics are these:


-that is what a real reef looks like to scuba divers. I’ve seen grand cayman down at thirty feet and it’s exactly like that, some dispersed growths tbd on the sandbed, that way conchs have something to eat, and some growths in between corals affixed to rocks that may not be the whorled coralline we want but nonetheless grow in pristine good waters so clean up crews and parrotfish have something to eat. The look we want to attain where those growths are missing is unnatural - params aren’t causing any issues for you at all that’s what a reef grows so grazers will physically cause the balance ideal. There are no parameters we should alter, your params have grown antlers out of sps and caused finicky gonis to open wide. Your feeding, it’s all perfect hold course.


- we can do an effective test model of one removable rock which I think you’ll like since it’s not a whole tank move, we’d save that for last.

if it’s possible lift out one single easy test rock and set it on the counter, if a coral is attached that’s ok just dribble or spray saltwater on it, use a knife point to target dig in and lightly but effectively rasp up and out any attached invaders. ID isn’t particularly important as we should not alter tank params around given various strains of cells, it’s not worth the insult to corals who clearly like being in this setting. We are physically learning about how the invader attaches etc. be rinsing off the dislodged teased out invasion and rinse away down the sink with saltwater, make the test rock physically free of its attachments by metal knife tip scrapes. This mimics effective rasping of ocean grazers we can’t fit in that tank. Last step: find a creative way to dab or dribble common 3% peroxide on the former invasion spots you dislodged, avoiding any coral. This is an ideal and safe spot kill technique for reefing, best I’ve ever seen. Rinse off after a few mins burn and set this one totally cleaned detailed rock back in the tank and we watch to see how well it stays clean or takes on new growths.


-eventually we can decide to rip clean the sand to get it free or perhaps just topically siphon it all out then you run a sterilizer temporarily to catch and burn invader cells before they remass

-that appears to be a very brightly lit system all the way around. Not windex blue but white-heavy spectrum and that too can select for invasions, at some point We can also brainstorm simple light intensity and color changes as a harmless trial.

Now thats a few paragraphs of great ideas and information!

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

wait on sand till we get the invasion stopped, that’s capping off waste moved from the prior system

Fully agreed Ralph based on readings I see in the nuisance algae forum regarding repeat guiding efforts

Folks are used to expect one pass fixes but these communal mats tbd species / use energy to remass unique to each system and its supports in my opinion, and it ranges tank to tank in what it takes to exhaust them but it’s something repeated and more resolved than the mass. I think it’s dinos off cursory appearance and color.

I know the going mode this last couple years was to boost N or P in relation to what non digital test kits say (throwing darts at a board target param number across the room is more accurate?) but I’m seeing about 5% fix rates and 95% GHA infestation trade offs even if the dinos recede, and usually mixes right in with them. I can’t recommend vibrant here, corals are too nice to risk, I can’t recommend fluconazole where not as harmful is indicated for plant battles not monerans or flagellates

No vibrant! Whats the bottle fix you recommend...lol jk

 

[Nigel35]

Well, for one there's the no hesitation rip clean. The other option is all hesitation based and will bring you a succession of gha then cyano most likely, and if you're lucky it's fixed by June.

The rip clean expects you'll need future continued access to remove strands that regrow, and aligns the tank for this access. The hesitation to await ID and permit new added mass too has a price and that's repeat cleaning work. When you refuse the growth vs ever let it get a foothold the work is less, but still required to win.


The hesitation method directly lets your tank get taken over, but saves you work as it grows. I get the strong feeling you're about to select the June option

Slow and steady doesn't win the race in this case... If I understand correctly, a total RIP clean is going to get me at ground zero. Then from there it is much simpler to prevent further invasions?

 

[Nigel35]

I am willing mate....don't discount that. I like to know all the cards before I make a move....

 

[Nano sapiens]

Slow and steady doesn't win the race in this case... If I understand correctly, a total RIP clean is going to get me at ground zero. Then from there it is much simpler to prevent further invasions?

Slow and steady can win the race...it's just that it is 'slow and steady'.

Brandon is suggesting a 'Rip Clean' which is a much faster and much more rigorous 'reset' of the system.

There's no real 'right or wrong' here, just a personal choice. In either case, the idea is to create an environment where the pest organism no longer has the resources available to sustain a bloom.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Slow and steady can win the race...it's just that it is 'slow and steady'.

Brandon is suggesting a 'Rip Clean' which is a much faster and much more rigorous 'reset' of the system.

There's no real 'right or wrong' here, just a personal choice. In either case, the idea is to create an environment where the pest organism no longer has the resources available to sustain a bloom.

That is a good look on it well said!

They both can be the right way to achieve what you want, perfect example of learn everything you can on both ways and a few more to come up with your own plan and what will work for your system.

RIP sounds interesting and I've never put it to use but with the examples outlined and methods explained i can see the benefits of this, and I would not hesitate to try it on my simpler systems first until I "mastered" it .

I've always been and I guess still am in the slow boat, but with the information and technology out today there is no reason to stick in way and one way only.

every tank is a different eco system.

Its crazy to think about that, all these tanks are similar but they are only one of a kind, even the ones in my house are absolutely different and I do everything the same in them, I try so hard to make them the same but I can't! Sometimes I get frustrated that one in one room looks so good when the other doesn't. it could be as simple as its just the room......