Shipping delays- am i burnt?

[a.t.t.r]

Dude I've read all of your posts. Your a troll. Stop talking to people on here when you don't know what your talking about. The frag was cut almost 6 weeks ago.. I'm the one who cut it. Secondly, no coral vendor out there is responsible for shipping delays. None, period. Stop trolling and get a life. I do my best to help people out in this hobby and do the right thing but im not a charity event. There's so much more I could say but your a waste of time cause all.you do is talk negative.

First off I’m not talking about coral vendors I’m talking about any vendor. You are responsible for the item in transit. Somehow this industry has convinced people otherwise. Just like how people think a “void if removed” label has any legal meaning for warranty. The fact is when shipping the seller is responsible. The seller is also responsible for purchasing or declining insurance. Not that that applies to live goods but it is another lie that businesses have somehow convinced consumers is there a problem.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Op dispute the entire purchase starting with eBay and then move up to credit card if they fail you. You bought a product and did not receive what you bought. This is simple.
We as an industry need to stop letting sellers pass the risk on to the buyers. What if this was an antique vase? Would oops shipping company messed up and there was no insurance be acceptable?(again shipper is one who is responsible for declining insurance as well).

 

[Aquatic Bobs]

Thank you guys for not being harsh with your responses, I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk, I really am kind of [upset] that I woke up this morning to one of my friends saying that you're getting bashed on reef to reef.

The 1st two websites I pulled up say the same thing. My ebay says the same. I am a hobbyist like all of you who sells frags of my main colonies for now. Hopefully some day I will sell on a larger scale and be able to give back more to the hobby. I'm really trying my best here and for the 3rd time I did offer the buyer the best that I can do even though I'm not responsible.

I feel your pain and frustration. I ordered almost $1500 from a coral vendor online and it got delayed over the weekend. When it showered up everything was dead and I was heartbroken. I wanted the seller to make it right but that was out of the sellers control because UPS was at fault. We were both pointing the finger at UPS and UPS was just laughing at us because they know there is nothing we can do. I've filled a couple different claims with FedEx and UPS in the past and seriously nothing was done at all. They don't care. So who eats it? That's why as buyers we understand before going into a sale that this is part of the experience at times. I told the buyer for $60 I would replace the coral. That covers shipping which was $52 and a couple bucks for the time.

 

[Aquatic Bobs]

Here's the Jason fox site as well

 

[Aquatic Bobs]

If you're still not satisfied then that's up to you but I've gone above what even these major retail stores are willing to do. Buyer, please message me personally If you're interested in what ive offered you.

 

[Jon's Reef]

I agree it is very nerve wracking shipping coral. Part of the reason I stopped selling during the pandemic, shipping just was too unpredictable.

When I encounter a vendor (or person selling) who I have a good experience with, I try to pick up the same habits. On the other hand when I encounter a transaction that I have had a bad experience with, I learn to not do those things.

In this case it is also important to remember that UPS and FedEx do not technically permit live animal shipping in the way we do it. This is why they do not cover the cost of the coral even if insured. They often will refund the shipping, but even then you may have issues if the label was purchase via 3rd party.

The shipping cost (including the box, cooler, hot/cool pack, bags ~$5-10 on top of the shipping) is a hard cost. It is fully reasonable for the seller to ask for the buyer to repay that.

There is one exception to this… rare pieces. For example a holy grail torch. In this case it should be made 100% clear that there will be some loss splitting from shipping delay (not due to seller negligence) Something like 50%. In this case it would also be advised for the buyer to pickup at the local shipping facility.

 

[Dburr1014]

If you're still not satisfied then that's up to you but I've gone above what even these major retail stores are willing to do. Buyer, please message me personally If you're interested in what ive offered you.

Sounds like you are doing due diligence.
Hope this gets resolved.

 

[Aquatic Bobs]

I'm gonna take a side step here as well and just say thank you guys for being willing to hold me accountable even if I am.ticked off. I'm still learning too. I'm still frustrated about this whole thing and I get super angry at shipping delays because I know they're not willing to make it right. But I do appreciate people who are willing to hold others accountable the right way because the truth is that there are too many vendors that are really just selling to make money. Which in itself isn't bad, but when they try to take advantage of people to make money that when someone needs to send them a reminder. I'm really trying. When you see a big healthy colony in my tank, the truth is that I've spend countless hours and probably 100's if not 1000s of dollars maintaining it over the years.

I sell coral on the side to help support my family cause I work at a treatment facility making not much more than minimum wage. I'm doing what I can and trying my best to take care of the people I get to serve in this hobby. I love what I do and that's why I take this so seriously. So I'm sorry if I was rude or disrespectful.

 

[a.t.t.r]

I'm gonna take a side step here as well and just say thank you guys for being willing to hold me accountable even if I am.ticked off. I'm still learning too. I'm still frustrated about this whole thing and I get super angry at shipping delays because I know they're not willing to make it right. But I do appreciate people who are willing to hold others accountable the right way because the truth is that there are too many vendors that are really just selling to make money. Which in itself isn't bad, but when they try to take advantage of people to make money that when someone needs to send them a reminder. I'm really trying. When you see a big healthy colony in my tank, the truth is that I've spend countless hours and probably 100's if not 1000s of dollars maintaining it over the years.

I sell coral on the side to help support my family cause I work at a treatment facility making not much more than minimum wage. I'm doing what I can and trying my best to take care of the people I get to serve in this hobby. I love what I do and that's why I take this so seriously. So I'm sorry if I was rude or disrespectful.

You may wish to raise your prices to build issue like this into your budget and adjust your price based on your average DOA. You should be able to get a partial refund for the next day shipping leaving you out only the cost of the frag. Welcome to running a business it is a learning curve. As far as your research into others DOA policy. Those really hold no legal weight and are there to just make life more difficult for dishonest people this isn't FOB shipping. You may want to look into https://shipyouraquatics.com/pages/insurance something like this in the future.

 

[Roli's Reef Ranch]

We shall see. I said "how can we make this right? What is your refund/replacement policy? I chose this auction because the description states Seller is liable for the item and the usual trend puts it on the buyer. I am not trying to be a difficult customer but I never even had a chance to try saving this frag."

I get so anxious in situations like this.. I know it's not his fault. This was my first time working up the nerve to order SPS over the internet

This guy is a YouTuber:

 

[GARRIGA]

You may wish to raise your prices to build issue like this into your budget and adjust your price based on your average DOA. You should be able to get a partial refund for the next day shipping leaving you out only the cost of the frag. Welcome to running a business it is a learning curve. As far as your research into others DOA policy. Those really hold no legal weight and are there to just make life more difficult for dishonest people this isn't FOB shipping. You may want to look into https://shipyouraquatics.com/pages/insurance something like this in the future.

I use ship your reptiles same company as ship your aquatics. Something perhaps all small vendors should use. I include it as part of the shipping. This way I avoid concerns. I also only ship to FedEx hubs or Kinkos. No home deliveries because of possibility of delays. Businesses used to be an option but I now prefer hubs.

 

[Aquatic Bobs]

I've asked a few other YouTube / small vendors what they do and pretty much everyone just says it's a lose lose situation :-( These shipping companies are so big that they have complete jurisdiction and they always disqualify claims when shipping live animals. The best advice I've received is to clearly state your expectations and guidelines For both buyer and seller when it comes to shipping from small vendors or other hobbiests. Communicate before the shipment. I understand we can't have direct communication with every single buyer that's why it's important to post this information on websites or eBay pages. If someone asks me a question I make it a priority to always respond as soon as possible

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Here's the Jason fox site as well

Thank you guys for not being harsh with your responses, I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk, I really am kind of p***** off that I woke up this morning to one of my friends saying that you're getting bashed on reef to reef.

The 1st two websites I pulled up say the same thing. My ebay says the same. I am a hobbyist like all of you who sells frags of my main colonies for now. Hopefully some day I will sell on a larger scale and be able to give back more to the hobby. I'm really trying my best here and for the 3rd time I did offer the buyer the best that I can do even though I'm not responsible.

I feel your pain and frustration. I ordered almost $1500 from a coral vendor online and it got delayed over the weekend. When it showered up everything was dead and I was heartbroken. I wanted the seller to make it right but that was out of the sellers control because UPS was at fault. We were both pointing the finger at UPS and UPS was just laughing at us because they know there is nothing we can do. I've filled a couple different claims with FedEx and UPS in the past and seriously nothing was done at all. They don't care. So who eats it? That's why as buyers we understand before going into a sale that this is part of the experience at times. I told the buyer for $60 I would replace the coral. That covers shipping which was $52 and a couple bucks for the time.

The sites you are quoting for shipping only say if the buyer isn’t available for the first delivery attempt, then there is no DOA on arrival. Was this coral shipped priority overnight with signature required? It sounds like this was shipped next day air and got delayed. That is not the buyers fault. I am truly surprised that a healthy coral that had a heat pack in the box couldn’t survive an extra day of shipping this time of year. Also, that coral did not look like it was cut 6 weeks prior to the EBay photo. No encrusting on the frag plug and a pretty clean looking cut.

The buyer has provided the messages showing at least some of your responses. You haven’t shown anything, you have only claimed that you would replace the coral for shipping cost. I do agree with you that the shipping cost is fair, but that is not what has been shown to have happened in this transaction up to this point.

 

[Roli's Reef Ranch]

Thank you guys for not being harsh with your responses, I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk, I really am kind of p***** off that I woke up this morning to one of my friends saying that you're getting bashed on reef to reef.

The 1st two websites I pulled up say the same thing. My ebay says the same. I am a hobbyist like all of you who sells frags of my main colonies for now. Hopefully some day I will sell on a larger scale and be able to give back more to the hobby. I'm really trying my best here and for the 3rd time I did offer the buyer the best that I can do even though I'm not responsible.

I feel your pain and frustration. I ordered almost $1500 from a coral vendor online and it got delayed over the weekend. When it showered up everything was dead and I was heartbroken. I wanted the seller to make it right but that was out of the sellers control because UPS was at fault. We were both pointing the finger at UPS and UPS was just laughing at us because they know there is nothing we can do. I've filled a couple different claims with FedEx and UPS in the past and seriously nothing was done at all. They don't care. So who eats it? That's why as buyers we understand before going into a sale that this is part of the experience at times. I told the buyer for $60 I would replace the coral. That covers shipping which was $52 and a couple bucks for the time.

Hey Bob, I’ve followed you on YouTube and I know you are a genuinely decent dude. Ultimately this comes down to your DOA policy as stated in the ad. I haven’t looked at it but that is between you and your buyer. As I stated in another post (before I knew it was you, not that it matters), we all have choices to make and we’ll all get the short end of the coral stick from time to time. I actually got my WD off eBay along with a TGC cherry bomb for a FRACTION of the the price of just a WD from the big boys (WWC, TSA etc. who will give credit for DOA frags). TBH, I didn’t even care what the DOA policy was on the eBay ad, if any, because I knew at the lower price, a certain risk is associated with the purchase. There is a very simple reason eBay/R2R frags cost what they do, and it’s because the cost structure is much lower for a hobbyist than a brick and mortar facility with employees, who cover DOAs. I’ve been recently ripped off by a seller here on R2R more than once (see my review), but when you factor in the price reduction of the honest sellers, I’m pretty much even compared to retail. I suppose the question to buyers is; How good is your tolerance for risk/drama, and how much excitement do you want in reefkeeping. Caveat Emptor.The question to the seller is; Is this worth any reputational damage to my operation? Am I doing the right thing? There is no publicity like bad publicity, but I love your YouTube channel and foresee a boost in views coming up really soon! Good luck

 

[DMG Reef]

It appears that the frag got too hot in the box. Using a heat pack when the destination location is going to be in the 80's probably isn't the best plan. I've received shipments that were too cool and the acros had lost color but we're alive and able to recover. I received an order in July 2019 in Oklahoma with temps around 100, the vendor didn't use an ice pack, and this was the result:

Looks just like the OP's frag. It appears that the seller thinks he should be 100% whole in this transaction and the buyer should get nothing but a discount on another order. There's no way I would try another transaction with this seller. It appears he's "learning" and that his buyers have to suffer during his learning curve.

IMO the shipping delay didn't kill this coral. The heat pack most likely did. My above-referenced order was received on time but a total loss due to the heat. In my case the vendor replaced the frags with me paying shipping.

While I sympathize with the seller trying to make a living, I'm sure his buyers work for their money too. Refunding the cost of the frag is the only resolution that's fair to both parties. The seller lost a frag and the buyer loses the shipping cost. Seems simple to me.

 

[Aquatic Bobs]

The sites you are quoting for shipping only say if the buyer isn’t available for the first delivery attempt, then there is no DOA on arrival. Was this coral shipped priority overnight with signature required? It sounds like this was shipped next day air and got delayed. That is not the buyers fault. I am truly surprised that a healthy coral that had a heat pack in the box couldn’t survive an extra day of shipping this time of year. Also, that coral did not look like it was cut 6 weeks prior to the EBay photo. No encrusting on the frag plug and a pretty clean looking cut.

The buyer has provided the messages showing at least some of your responses. You haven’t shown anything, you have only claimed that you would replace the coral for shipping cost. I do agree with you that the shipping cost is fair, but that is not what has been shown to have happened in this transaction up to this point.

Have you not looked at the messages I sent lol I'm not sure why I'm responding to you but they all state they are not responsible for shipping delays... same with me. Doesn't matter what you think anyways, it matters what has actually happened and what the truth is. If you look at the one message I attached a picture of how the buyer said they were extremely satisfied with my communication even after they said the package was delivered. Despite everything else here, I still posted I am not responsible for shipping delays... how much more do you need to be satisfied? Glad it's not up to you lol wow just wow. Lastly. If you look at my videos from over a month ago you will see that piece in the front of my tank on the frag rack to the left. It just seems funny to me that your trying to speak into our business transaction without knowing what your talking about. I can't believe I spend as much time as I do justifying the truth and reality :-/

 

[Aquatic Bobs]

It appears that the frag got too hot in the box. Using a heat pack when the destination location is going to be in the 80's probably isn't the best plan. I've received shipments that were too cool and the acros had lost color but we're alive and able to recover. I received an order in July 2019 in Oklahoma with temps around 100, the vendor didn't use an ice pack, and this was the result:

Looks just like the OP's frag. It appears that the seller thinks he should be 100% whole in this transaction and the buyer should get nothing but a discount on another order. There's no way I would try another transaction with this seller. It appears he's "learning" and that his buyers have to suffer during his learning curve.

IMO the shipping delay didn't kill this coral. The heat pack most likely did. My above-referenced order was received on time but a total loss due to the heat. In my case the vendor replaced the frags with me paying shipping.

While I sympathize with the seller trying to make a living, I'm sure his buyers work for their money too. Refunding the cost of the frag is the only resolution that's fair to both parties. The seller lost a frag and the buyer loses the shipping cost. Seems simple to me.

When I shipped the coral his weather was in the 50's. When it was supposed to be delivered the next morning the weather was in the high 50's. I will say this again for the 15th time now.. My auction says I am not responsible for shipping delays which is what happened.

 

[HudsonReefer2.0]

@Peace River can this thread pls b moved to the appropriate forum so the buyer and seller can communicate and work out their issues. Ty

 

[Aquatic Bobs]

Hey Bob, I’ve followed you on YouTube and I know you are a genuinely decent dude. Ultimately this comes down to your DOA policy as stated in the ad. I haven’t looked at it but that is between you and your buyer. As I stated in another post (before I knew it was you, not that it matters), we all have choices to make and we’ll all get the short end of the coral stick from time to time. I actually got my WD off eBay along with a TGC cherry bomb for a FRACTION of the the price of just a WD from the big boys (WWC, TSA etc. who will give credit for DOA frags). TBH, I didn’t even care what the DOA policy was on the eBay ad, if any, because I knew at the lower price, a certain risk is associated with the purchase. There is a very simple reason eBay/R2R frags cost what they do, and it’s because the cost structure is much lower for a hobbyist than a brick and mortar facility with employees, who cover DOAs. I’ve been recently ripped off by a seller here on R2R more than once (see my review), but when you factor in the price reduction of the honest sellers, I’m pretty much even compared to retail. I suppose the question to buyers is; How good is your tolerance for risk/drama, and how much excitement do you want in reefkeeping. Caveat Emptor.The question to the seller is; Is this worth any reputational damage to my operation? Am I doing the right thing? There is no publicity like bad publicity, but I love your YouTube channel and foresee a boost in views coming up really soon! Good luck

Thank you for your understanding and support. I'm really having a hard time understanding if Some of these people just can't read or if they're really that angry And just want to try to get involved in others business. Either way I appreciate the challenges and will use it to be more knowledgeable in the future.

 

[JaimeAdams]

Most stuff that I read goes along the lines of a seller can say that they aren't responsible for shipping delays, but most of them will work with the buyer. In this instance the guy said that he would replace the frag for the shipping cost plus $15. It probably costs him $15 in shipping materials and gas to take the package. I see that as being fair. I buy uline styro boxes to ship and $10 - $15 in material costs seems reasonable.

Your DOA policy might seem good to you as a seller, but to the buyers credit card company, bank or paypal it doesn't usually much matter. If I file a dispute and call it fraud because I ordered a "live WD frag" and I did not receive a live WD frag then ultimately the item was not as described and I'm going to win the dispute.

As a seller you just need to work these things into you margins as much as that sucks. Most coral sellers who say that they aren't responsible for acts of god or shipping delays will replace DOAs. Reputation is worth more that the cost of replacing a frag or two.