Skimmerless SPS tanks

jedimasterben · Oct 25, 2013

And before you say 'it can't be done', just stop it. kgoldy's tank full of neglect - Page 84 - Members Aquariums - Nano-Reef.com Forums (hate to link to other forums, but this is the best example I have ever seen)

No water changes in two years, no skimmer for longer than that, and parameters that ended up measuring out to this:

Salinity 1.022
Dkh 6.3
Calcium 675
Mag 880
Phosphates a little higher than 0.1
Nitrates 5

Check out those colors, and growth can only be described as 'explosive'. No dosing other than saturated kalk for topoff, and fish are fed twice per week exclusively with NLS pellets. Chaeto is removed from the refugium once per month, and that's all the export that goes on.

Absolutely remarkable. I think I'm going to ignore the heck out of my tank and see if it ends up looking like that lol!

Anyone else know of any awesome skimmerless tanks?

Mr. D · Oct 25, 2013

I currently run a 27 cube without a skimmer with sps. However, I personally believe it's a limited case for someone to get away at having a great and healthy tank with no water changes. Very interesting though.

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J Rog · Oct 25, 2013

I ignored my tank for a couple of months. Still doing water changes but not testing anything.. Eneded up with a tank crash.. My PO4 got to around .24
My work or my bite you in the a**. lol

jedimasterben · Oct 25, 2013

I haven't done a water change on my system in several months. I'm continuing to battle with dinoflagellates, which are fueled by water changes. I do run a skimmer, but to be frank, my tank had never looked better than when I ran only an algae scrubber and a very large refugium filled with macroalgae I collected myself from the ocean. I had amazing growth in the SPS that I kept at the time, but as dinoflagellates started taking over (I believe this species came in on the macros I collected), everything went downhill.

Tahoe61 · Oct 25, 2013

Imagine what it would look like with some routine water changes. Remove the DOC feeding the cyano, replace the elements.. I am on board with skimmers sometimes being nonessential but honestly the tank looks like it could use some water changes. It's still a beautiful tank but it has the potential to look a lot better.

J Rog · Oct 25, 2013

jedimasterben said:
I haven't done a water change on my system in several months. I'm continuing to battle with dinoflagellates, which are fueled by water changes. I do run a skimmer, but to be frank, my tank had never looked better than when I ran only an algae scrubber and a very large refugium filled with macroalgae I collected myself from the ocean. I had amazing growth in the SPS that I kept at the time, but as dinoflagellates started taking over (I believe this species came in on the macros I collected), everything went downhill.

Ya, thats the downfall on getting stuff out of the wild. Never know what could be in there..

jedimasterben · Oct 25, 2013

J Rog said:
Ya, thats the downfall on getting stuff out of the wild. Never know what could be in there..

Yeah, we can't all be Paul Baldassano. Though, he'd probably take the dinos out to a nice dinner, he's friends with just about all the stuff everyone considers 'bad'! lol

IBEW41 · Oct 26, 2013

Tahoe61 said:
Imagine what it would look like with some routine water changes. Remove the DOC feeding the cyano, replace the elements.. I am on board with skimmers sometimes being nonessential but honestly the tank looks like it could use some water changes. It's still a beautiful tank but it has the potential to look a lot better.

agree

CoralMD · Oct 26, 2013

Tanks I've seen in person that don't do water changes and are skimmerless seem to be lacking the color not to say they are not pretty still nice displays and I think on some tanks different algaes growing in display look natural and pretty cool. That's just my opinion though.

shred5 · Oct 26, 2013

The tanks that don't do water changes it is not about a year but two more/less when all the bound phosphates start to release or phosphate starts to build back into the water due to saturation.. It also about when the heavy metals and toxins build up. People need to understand biology process and what is happening. How phosphates are bound and how they are used up earlier on as bacteria grow.

People wonder why they use gfo or carbon dosing and their phosphates don't drop or why algae keeps growing, its these bound phosphates. This is a problem for those who get lazy or dont start out right too.

As for using a algae filter the problem is the level of phosphate to keep algae alive in the filter is a little too high for a sps tank. Can a sps tank be kept with a algae filter: sure, I just don't think they look as good.. We don't want algae in a tank we want levels of phosphate low enough so most algae don't grow. Also most algae release chemicals to impede the growth of corals. But I have seen some awsum sps tanks that just use a algae filter...

Also I have seen some nice sps tanks that do lots of water changes and continuous water changes.

jedimasterben · Oct 26, 2013

shred5 said:
The tanks that don't do water changes it is not about a year but two more/less when all the bound phosphates start to release or phosphate starts to build back into the water due to saturation.. It also about when the heavy metals and toxins build up. People need to understand biology process and what is happening. How phosphates are bound and how they are used up earlier on as bacteria grow.

People wonder why they use gfoor carbon and their phosphates don't drop or why algae keeps growing, its these bound phosphates. This is a problem for those who get lazy or dont start out right too.

As for using a algae filter the problem is the level of phosphate to keep algae alive in the filter is too high for a sps tank. Can a sps tank be kept with a algae filter: sure, I just don't think they look as good.. We don't want algae in a tank we want levels of phosphate low enough so most algae don't grow. Also most algae release chemicals to impede the growth of corals. But I have seen some awsum sps tanks that just use a algae filter...

I don't think that you looked at the tank above (or the other examples out there, google is your friend

). No skimmer, no GFO, no carbon, no water changes, and no dosing other than kalk in the topoff water for over two years now. In addition, when his parameters measured to how they were as I listed in the OP, he raised his salinity by sticking a hardened block of salt from an old bucket into the sump. Nothing died or was even stressed from that. His SPS are still growing like weeds, and if the water quality is not where it should be, the corals would simply not grow.

Also, algae release tons of stuff into the water - vitamins, amino acids, etc, and only 'bad' allelochemicals when growing next to something that they don't like. Even then, some corals actually prefer to grow next to turf algae: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/11/15/rspb.2011.2155.short

The algaescrubber.net forum has some awesome examples of people that only use an algae filter for their tanks (though some use it in addition to other methods of export). What I take away from all of this is that corals are far hardier than we give them credit for, and conditions don't need to be anywhere near optimal to have explosive great and amazing color. All of those SPS in his tank are as colorful as they are in the tanks of the people that he's sold frags to.

shred5 · Oct 26, 2013

jedimasterben said:
I don't think that you looked at the tank above (or the other examples out there, google is your friend ). No skimmer, no GFO, no carbon, no water changes, and no dosing other than kalk in the topoff water for over two years now. In addition, when his parameters measured to how they were as I listed in the OP, he raised his salinity by sticking a hardened block of salt from an old bucket into the sump. Nothing died or was even stressed from that. His SPS are still growing like weeds, and if the water quality is not where it should be, the corals would simply not grow.

Also, algae release tons of stuff into the water - vitamins, amino acids, etc, and only 'bad' allelochemicals when growing next to something that they don't like. Even then, some corals actually prefer to grow next to turf algae: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/11/15/rspb.2011.2155.short

The algaescrubber.net forum has some awesome examples of people that only use an algae filter for their tanks (though some use it in addition to other methods of export). What I take away from all of this is that corals are far hardier than we give them credit for, and conditions don't need to be anywhere near optimal to have explosive great and amazing color. All of those SPS in his tank are as colorful as they are in the tanks of the people that he's sold frags to.

To me two years is not successfull 10 years is..
I didn't say you could not keep a sps tank with a algae filter.. I said I don't think they look as nice. I mainly was talking about water changes in the first part.
Dude I been in this hobby almost 30 years I have seen everything, I don't need google I have toured thousands of tanks over the years,..I have tried algae filters and such,,, Algae filters are not new and were very popular for a while....Also don't believe everything on the net.

Battlecorals · Oct 26, 2013

I could never ever suggest that not doing regular water changes was a good idea but as for skimmerless and sps, Menards tank is proof that it's possible. The caveat is that he was running a functioning plenum.

I know he did put a skimmer on this tank eventually but it ran without for some time. Notice he also maintains that regular water changes are essential. If I can echo Dave on this one, The key is long term success. Keeping sps in a fairly new system is not all that hard but keeping them alive and thriving for many years is the real challenge. Water changes are ultimately the primary tool for accomplishing this.

Anomalous tanks that manage to "thrive" while doing nothing will eventually crash. I can guarantee it

shred5 · Oct 26, 2013

Higher phosephate levels have been proven to slow sps growth and coloration... Phosphate levels we shoot for in a sps tank are usually lower than what green type algaes will grow in.. If those algaes grow your phosphate levels have to be higher even if they dont read it.. Dinos will grow at those lower levels... Actually the way to fight dinos is raise phosphate levels some and grow green algae.. The green algae will out compete the dinos.

You know we debate all this stuff like led lighting, skimmers, fuges, algae filters etc.. and you know it all comes down to good husbandry.. Just because you have the best skimmer, or best lighting does not mean you will even be successful... There are many ways to keep a successful reef and some are better or easier than other ways....

Adam is Menard still around? I was in his store many of times but never went to his house, I was invited several times but never went, bad timing.. Maybe need to talk to Carlos and see...

Pappy · Oct 27, 2013

Ok so my input is this...

The title says "skimmer less sps tank". The tank u posted the link to which I looked at was a tank with 4 or 5 off colored sticks and the rest was a bad case of herpes. Montis IMO don't count as sps because you can grow them in a toilet ime (well not literally but u get the point).

His #' are all off (all low), has cyano, and everything is washed out. So this is a bad example. You also stated that you've gone skimmer less and have Dino's. We all have Dino's yes but how much?

Is there one out of 100,000 that can pull it off? Sure but is it ideal? Corals do adapt but is it worth the risk to save a few $$$'s in salt and probably the most important piece of equipment other than lights? NOOOOO WAYYYY! C'mon man the shear science of if you have fish and don't remove waste with wc's and or skimmer then it's inevitable that you'll have a major issue it's just a matter of time.

There I said it and sorry to be so cynical.

trido · Oct 27, 2013

I ran a 30G SPS tank skimmerless for a year with no problems. The key was regular WC's and little to no fish.

DSP · Oct 27, 2013

Pappy explained it all! Totally agree with him.Of course you can keep a few sps in a tank without a skimmer iv done it but sps dominated is another story and Iv never seen or heard of an sps dominated tank going without water changes and a skimmer.Going without water changes wouldn't help your tank at all so idk why anyone would do it tbh

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DSP · Oct 27, 2013

And I agree that tank linked was a bad example its a nice tank but you can see the affects of no water changes

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