So I have a problem... low NO3/PO4

[Myka]

There are no bacteria in NOPOX. The organic matter in it is just simple organics such as acetic acid, ethanol, methanol, and isopropanol. The last two are at much lower levels than the first two,a nd may just reflect denatured ethanol as the ethanol source.

Ah, I didn't word that well - actually very poorly. I was meaning which type of bacteria were being added in addition to the NoPoX, or was he just adding the NoPoX and let the bacteria multiply on their own? People usually use a carbon source and a bacteria together. I'm not very familiar with Red Sea besides their test kits. Sorry. Looking at their website, they have a Nitro Bac product (which does list nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria) to use in conjunction with NoPoX and their Reef Mature Pro Kit which includes all sorts of interesting goodies. http://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-program/marine-care-program/reef-mature-pro-kit/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

FWIW, a ton of people (majority?) use organic carbon dosing without adding bacteria.
I dosed organics for years and have never added a bacteria product.

 

[Myka]

FWIW, a ton of people (majority?) use organic carbon dosing without adding bacteria.
I dosed organics for years and have never added a bacteria product.

Well yeah, I suppose that is true. Before Zeovit hit the market all we really had was Hagen Cycle for bacteria, and no one really took it seriously. Hahaha! I guess lots of people using biopellets don't use bacteria either. Nowadays I find that the addition of a good quality bacteria product (I like Prodibio) can really make a difference in a tank - maybe the good vs bad bacteria struggle...?

Randy, do you think that carbon dosing a new tank in hopes to profuse the tank with obligate and faculative anaerobes could help a tank mature quicker in a bacterial sense - maybe speed up the populations of denitrifying bacteria in tanks started with dry rock? It seems like Red Sea thinks so.

 

[Scott.h]

Thanks for the advice. As soon as I get the nutrient system in order I may indeed run this tank a bit lower. I'm a long time fan of Red Sea Coral Pro, what salt are you using?

Thats a vortex thread in itself. Any modern salt is capable. Personally I use tropic Marin pro reef. The alkalinity is usually under 8 and it's cheaper to bump alk then dose hydrocloratic acid, and I don't have to bubble it overnight to remove the co2. That's the only reason. If I switched to Red Sea I'd just go with the regular because it has lower alk, and it's cheaper. Red Sea is a good salt too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

and it's cheaper to bump alk then dose hydrocloratic acid,

Is it?

One gallon of hydrochloric acid from a hardware store (costs a few bucks) will drop 34,000 gallons of seawater by 1 dKH.

 

[Centerline]

So do you know if NoPoX provides faculative anaerobes or at least a combination of obligate aerobes and obligate anaerobes? I don't know which strains of bacteria are in NoPoX.

You are correct about the speed of growth causing pale tips, but it shouldn't cause paleness across the entire coral. The general consensus is that if you run an ULNS where there isn't enough nutrients to feed the corals' increased growth with the high alkalinity then you will get burned tips because the skeleton is growing faster than the flesh. When the skeleton bursts through the flesh (that sounds a lot more dramatic than it looks haha) then you will get seriously stunted growth for many weeks. Not worth the risk imo.

All you have to do to fix the current issue is back off the NoPoX dosing and allow PO4 and NO3 to rise. Should be fairly simple - you clearly have enough aerobic and anaerobic bacteria currently.

Also, FWIW, Prodibio BioDigest and BiOptim dosing is very mild. IME, you won't see a nutrient reduction using Prodibio as suggested on the package, though it may help maintain low nutrients. I used to use Prodibio BD and BO religiously on my previous SPS tank.

Thanks for your further interest and help. If you don't mind me asking how was your experience with the Prodibio products?

 

[Centerline]

Thats a vortex thread in itself. Any modern salt is capable. Personally I use tropic Marin pro reef. The alkalinity is usually under 8 and it's cheaper to bump alk then dose hydrocloratic acid, and I don't have to bubble it overnight to remove the co2. That's the only reason. If I switched to Red Sea I'd just go with the regular because it has lower alk, and it's cheaper. Red Sea is a good salt too.

Thanks! I have considered the Marin pro reef salt. Looks like good stuff and one of the nicest reefstores around uses it to great success! I may run off shore a couple of miles this weekend and get enough fresh salt water to for a couple of 20% changes as well. Bit of a pain as you really should run it through a 100 micron filter. One of the posters mentioned skimming some of the minerals out with that oversized skimmer I have.

 

[Centerline]

Ah, I didn't word that well - actually very poorly. I was meaning which type of bacteria were being added in addition to the NoPoX, or was he just adding the NoPoX and let the bacteria multiply on their own? People usually use a carbon source and a bacteria together. I'm not very familiar with Red Sea besides their test kits. Sorry. Looking at their website, they have a Nitro Bac product (which does list nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria) to use in conjunction with NoPoX and their Reef Mature Pro Kit which includes all sorts of interesting goodies. http://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-program/marine-care-program/reef-mature-pro-kit/

I started with 10 lbs of fresh gulf rock. Drove over to Spring Creek and met the diver at the docs. The rock was in my tank 4 hours later. So I believe that was a good start. I also used a couple of cups of live sand from my tank at home and of course the mystery Prodibio complex. Should have produced a nice cross section.

 

[Scott.h]

Is it?

One gallon of hydrochloric acid from a hardware store (costs a few bucks) will drop 34,000 gallons of seawater by 1 dKH.

It is from what I've seen. I've tried every local store, such as 2 pool stores, Home Depot, Lowes, menards, and 2 smaller hardware stores. All I can come up with is muradic acid, which from what I understand is watered down hydrochloric with impurities. I only find a few vendors that will sell hydrocloratic on line without a license. I think the last bottle I bought was around 50 cc's and cost around $14 with shipping. Way more then a box of arm and hammer. That said where can I get a gallon?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It is from what I've seen. I've tried every local store, such as 2 pool stores, Home Depot, Lowes, menards, and 2 smaller hardware stores. All I can come up with is muradic acid, which from what I understand is watered down hydrochloric with impurities. I only find a few vendors that will sell hydrocloratic on line without a license. I think the last bottle I bought was around 50 cc's and cost around $14 with shipping. Way more then a box of arm and hammer. That said where can I get a gallon?

Muriatic acid is the trade name for hydrochloric acid. Ace Hardware has it full strength last I bought some.

 

[ebushrow]

So there is 1 thing that I see different between the 2 systems.... the lighting. The par or lux meter readings would be very important here.... many if not all sps need to be acclimated to LEDs from mh's. Is it possible that the reason could be the lighting? I have seen that the LEDs give off a more intense beam of light, where the mh builds disperse the light in a more even pattern... concentrated towards the center of course but some LEDs are like mini-spotlights and the corals will be unhappy or burn due to this. I have seen many uln tanks that didn't have an issue at all.... but what works for one tank may not work for the other... as has been said before.

 

[Scott.h]

Muriatic acid is the trade name for hydrochloric acid. Ace Hardware has it full strength last I bought some.

really? So does this hydrocloratic have the same impurities as the muriatic that I have? Or is it ace specific that is just labeled differently? Im aware that the muriatic is thought to have impurities that are irrelevant, but if I could purchase stuff without the impurities, even costing more, I would prefer just for peace of mind. But if the 2 are the same then no point in paying 3x as much for way less

 

[Myka]

Thanks for your further interest and help. If you don't mind me asking how was your experience with the Prodibio products?

I don't think Prodibio "fixes" anything - in other words it won't lower nutrients in a high or medium nutrient tank ime, but it's great for maintaining low nutrients. I found an undefinable general increase in health in the tank when I started using it. Of all the additives I tried over the years Prodibio BioDigest and BiOptim made the most significant visual difference in the tank. That was a mature low nutrient SPS tank I started using it on.

I started with 10 lbs of fresh gulf rock. Drove over to Spring Creek and met the diver at the docs. The rock was in my tank 4 hours later. So I believe that was a good start. I also used a couple of cups of live sand from my tank at home and of course the mystery Prodibio complex. Should have produced a nice cross section.

Yeah, should be. There was no time in this thread that I thought you were lacking bacteria. I was asking Randy about the carbon dosing since you claimed it sped up the cycling time. I just think you're doing too much carbon dosing for the tank, and ime if you bottom out the numbers via carbon dosing you'll be seeing either cyano or burned tips at some point.

 

[Centerline]

I don't think Prodibio "fixes" anything - in other words it won't lower nutrients in a high or medium nutrient tank ime, but it's great for maintaining low nutrients. I found an undefinable general increase in health in the tank when I started using it. Of all the additives I tried over the years Prodibio BioDigest and BiOptim made the most significant visual difference in the tank. That was a mature low nutrient SPS tank I started using it on.



Yeah, should be. There was no time in this thread that I thought you were lacking bacteria. I was asking Randy about the carbon dosing since you claimed it sped up the cycling time. I just think you're doing too much carbon dosing for the tank, and ime if you bottom out the numbers via carbon dosing you'll be seeing either cyano or burned tips at some point.

I believe that you are absolutely right!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

really? So does this hydrocloratic have the same impurities as the muriatic that I have? Or is it ace specific that is just labeled differently? Im aware that the muriatic is thought to have impurities that are irrelevant, but if I could purchase stuff without the impurities, even costing more, I would prefer just for peace of mind. But if the 2 are the same then no point in paying 3x as much for way less

Standard muriatic acid is about 36% HCl (that is concentrated hydrochloric acid; 100% HCl is a gas, not a liquid). Some bottles have more water in them to reduce fumes. As to impurities, there will be some in any HCl, but I've never seen a comparison of different sources and you use relatively little. I've not heard of issues from anyone using it to drop the alk in new salt mixes.