So I have a problem... low NO3/PO4

[Centerline]

Also you're running your alkalinity on the high side. This along with high lights and low nutrients can increase the risk of RTN. I wouldn't go doing anything drastic by changing your alkalinity (you could slowly let it drop IF that is your end goal) but it's something to keep in mind. At the very least keeps things stable. Do you know what the alkalinity was in the tank where you got your SPS from? How long have you had them for?

If you are stripping nutrients from your tank hopefully getting some back will keep the SPS happy. Just don't swing too far the other way

I pulled the SPS frags from a tank at home where I run the ALK at 12. Its a very stable system and I run the whole RedSea show on it (NO3POX4, Reefer energy, etc). But on that tank I don't have any of these issues. Everything is very stable, rapid growth and good coloration. 2x250 MHs, 4 T5s and a couple of XHO Reefbrites.

 

[Scott.h]

Just to shadow the other comments which I agree, I personally wouldn't run the no3pox4 especially on a tank that new just because it shouldn't be needed yet. Let the nutrient levels establish first. Also .. Just a thought here but I'm thinking dumping food in like you are might compound and hit hard all at once.

 

[nervousmonkey]

Idk. Chemistry is just silly. Lol. Mines a year old in 5 days. Tons o pods and way overkill on my rock load.

HAHA! "Chemistry is just silly". That is funny, although I doubt some people here would agree with it. IDK either though, wish I did and I'd have a beautiful tank. If you have tons o' pods that's a good sign, and unless your rocks are in the way of maintenance or coral placement, there's nothing wrong at all with heavy rock load. I still love that you said, 'Chemistry is just silly'. That made me laugh while trying to cook dinner...

 

[ReeferMaddness843]

Every tank is different. What works well for one could crash another. I understand the chemistry of my tank at this point, for the most part anyway. Ha. Meant it facetiously. It's the key in this hobby. Glad I could bring a little laughter to a predicament though.

 

[nervousmonkey]

yeah, you are completely right about what's right for one tank would crash another. It's funny having two tanks in my house, and two completely different set ups, it is strange to see how different the tanks are, but both of them going strong. I would like to know more about the chemistry and biochemistry of what is happening in our tanks besides the use of PO4, NO3 and carbon backbone chemistry. There has to be a lot of other things that make a huge difference, but we just don't know what that is. I mean normal humans; and yeah, chemistry is silly.

 

[Joel Franco]

What part of Saint Augustine are you located in?

 

[Myka]

Also you're running your alkalinity on the high side. This along with high lights and low nutrients can increase the risk of RTN. I wouldn't go doing anything drastic by changing your alkalinity (you could slowly let it drop IF that is your end goal) but it's something to keep in mind.

Just to shadow the other comments which I agree, I personally wouldn't run the no3pox4 especially on a tank that new just because it shouldn't be needed yet. Let the nutrient levels establish first. Also .. Just a thought here but I'm thinking dumping food in like you are might compound and hit hard all at once.

These two things. I find in mixed LPS/SPS reefs that alkalinity 8-8.5 dKH is the happy place. SPS prefer alkalinity around natural seawater (7.2 dKH), where LPS are prone to STN and Brown Jelly disease under 8.0 dKH. Running a reef 10-12 dKH is "old fashioned". I don't mean that in a condescending way, I just mean that it's unusual nowadays. I also don't think you should be carbon dosing on a spanky new tank. IMO, carbon dosing is a "fix" for a problem, and not an everyday tool. If you don't have nutrient issues to "fix", then carbon dosing won't do any good, and possibly could do ungood (bad haha).

 

[Centerline]

Just to shadow the other comments which I agree, I personally wouldn't run the no3pox4 especially on a tank that new just because it shouldn't be needed yet. Let the nutrient levels establish first. Also .. Just a thought here but I'm thinking dumping food in like you are might compound and hit hard all at once.

Ya, very good points and thank for the input. I'm wondering if the real problem here is the addition of Prodibio combined with the NOPOX. Just too much bacteria too fast leading to some weird imbalance with the different strains. I have done the fast cycle before using vinegar and vodka without these issues.

Thank you

 

[Scott.h]

Ya, very good points and thank for the input. I'm wondering if the real problem here is the addition of Prodibio combined with the NOPOX. Just too much bacteria too fast leading to some weird imbalance with the different strains. I have done the fast cycle before using vinegar and vodka without these issues.

Thank you

With all the stuff available on the market it's easy to get caught up in buying stuff. Not that it would necessarily hurt anything, but if you read articles by the innovators that brought saltwater into the home, and still do it today, they really dont add squat. After I got that through my head I stopped with all the extras as well. I run 3 different systems. As things grow and have more waste I beef up my filtration. I carbon dose only on one system, 2ml a day. Each system runs 0 (detectable) phosphate and around 5 nitrates. Running less made my stuff bleached so that seems to be the sweet spot for me. I've never had luck running kh much over 8. Higher bleached the tips, so I picked a salt with lower alk. Like mentioned above with LPS and sps, combined with carbon dosing I keep it 8 on the nose.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Idk. Chemistry is just silly. Lol.

Thems fightin words.

 

[nervousmonkey]

Thems fightin words.

HAHA! I was afraid to invite you to this thread when I saw that had been added, but somehow knew that Dr. Holmes-Farley would show up though.

 

[Centerline]

A couple of things.

1. Doing carbon is not new. I have had several successful tanks that used vodka to mitigate high nutrient loads because I cant seem to stop myself from adding "just one more fish". I have found it to be simplicity itself and the results speak for themselves.
2. I have always ran my ALK at 11-12 and seen fantastic results with respect to growth and coloration. The only issue I have ever had was the combination of high ALK and BioPellets at the same time. I simply could not keep enough NO3 in the system. The SPS started looking very bad and I was forced to take the reactor off line. PO4 was never an issue though. Once the reactor was off line thigs quickly improved.
3. Fast cycling (feeding the bacteria with a carbon source to form a larger bacterial population and mitigate the typical cycle) works when combined with fresh live rock or products such as MB7 that introduce bacteria to the system. The difference with this tank is the combination fast cycling and the addition of Prodibio. This technique is no different than adding MB7 and BioFuel. I simply chose NO3POX4 as I have a couple of years worth of experience with it. The addition of Prodibio was new.
4. The unexpected result was that no matter how much I feed I cant raise either NO3 or PO4.

 

[Centerline]

With all the stuff available on the market it's easy to get caught up in buying stuff. Not that it would necessarily hurt anything, but if you read articles by the innovators that brought saltwater into the home, and still do it today, they really dont add squat. After I got that through my head I stopped with all the extras as well. I run 3 different systems. As things grow and have more waste I beef up my filtration. I carbon dose only on one system, 2ml a day. Each system runs 0 (detectable) phosphate and around 5 nitrates. Running less made my stuff bleached so that seems to be the sweet spot for me. I've never had luck running kh much over 8. Higher bleached the tips, so I picked a salt with lower alk. Like mentioned above with LPS and sps, combined with carbon dosing I keep it 8 on the nose.

Thanks for the advice. As soon as I get the nutrient system in order I may indeed run this tank a bit lower. I'm a long time fan of Red Sea Coral Pro, what salt are you using?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

A couple of things.

1. Doing carbon is not new. I have had several successful tanks that used vodka to mitigate high nutrient loads because I cant seem to stop myself from adding "just one more fish". I have found it to be simplicity itself and the results speck for themselves.
2. I have always ran my ALK at 11-12 and seen fantastic results with respect to growth and coloration. The only issue I have every had was the combination of hi ALK and BioPellets at the same time. I simply could not keep enough NO3 in the system. The SPS started looking very bad and I was forced to take the reactor off line. PO4 was never an issue though.
3. Fast cycling (feeding the bacteria with a carbon source to form a larger bacterial population and mitigate the typical cycle) works when combined with fresh live rock or products such as MB7 that introduce bacteria to the system. The difference with this tank is the combination fast cycling and the addition of Prodibio. This technique is no different than adding MB7 and BioFuel. I simply chose NO3POX4 as I have a couple of years worth of experience with it. The addition of Prodibio was new.
4. The unexpected result was that no matter how much I feed I cant raise either NO3 or PO4.

If you want, just dose nitrate and/or phosphate. Many folks dose one or the other (mostly nitrate).

 

[Centerline]

These two things. I find in mixed LPS/SPS reefs that alkalinity 8-8.5 dKH is the happy place. SPS prefer alkalinity around natural seawater (7.2 dKH), where LPS are prone to STN and Brown Jelly disease under 8.0 dKH. Running a reef 10-12 dKH is "old fashioned". I don't mean that in a condescending way, I just mean that it's unusual nowadays. I also don't think you should be carbon dosing on a spanky new tank. IMO, carbon dosing is a "fix" for a problem, and not an everyday tool. If you don't have nutrient issues to "fix", then carbon dosing won't do any good, and possibly could do ungood (bad haha).

Hi Myka and thanks for taking the time to reply. The point of carbon dosing in this instance was to feed the new bacterial population and shorten the cycle time dramatically. This worked very well - too well in fact. Running higher ALK levels most certainly speeds up coral growth as long as the system isn't nutrient limited such as this current mess. If I understand the mechanism correctly, the downside is that the symbiodinium / zooxanthellae clades that are the pigment carriers cannot keep up with the growth and you end up with some very pale looking corals without a lot of nutrients. Not the same as bleaching such as is seen on a tropical reef where temperature is stressing the heck out of the coral causing the zooxanthellae to jump ship.

 

[Centerline]

If you want, just dose nitrate and/or phosphate. Many folks dose one or the other (mostly nitrate).

Hey Randy, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Last night I read and re-read your thread on nitrate dosing and plan on picking up some stump remover within the hour. If I understand this correctly the addition of nitrate may lower the amount of PO4 (.02 via my spanking new Hanna UL kit). Should this be a concern in the short term? My plan is to kill the skimmer and layoff the NO3POx until I have this under control. I don't believe Ill run any Prodibio for a while either as it was introduced simply to create a large bacteria population to speed up the cycling process. My "guess" is that the Prodibio was frivolous and that I have fostered a very large and hungry bacterial population.

 

[Centerline]

What part of Saint Augustine are you located in?

Hi Joel, I live off SR16 and my business and this current tank are at my business "Centerline Steel" off Holmes blvd. If you are local please feel free to stop by.

Thank you

 

[Myka]

Hi Myka and thanks for taking the time to reply. The point of carbon dosing in this instance was to feed the new bacterial population and shorten the cycle time dramatically. This worked very well - too well in fact. Running higher ALK levels most certainly speeds up coral growth as long as the system isn't nutrient limited such as this current mess. If I understand the mechanism correctly, the downside is that the symbiodinium / zooxanthellae clades that are the pigment carriers cannot keep up with the growth and you end up with some very pale looking corals without a lot of nutrients. Not the same as bleaching such as is seen on a tropical reef where temperature is stressing the heck out of the coral causing the zooxanthellae to jump ship.

So do you know if NoPoX provides faculative anaerobes or at least a combination of obligate aerobes and obligate anaerobes? I don't know which strains of bacteria are in NoPoX.

You are correct about the speed of growth causing pale tips, but it shouldn't cause paleness across the entire coral. The general consensus is that if you run an ULNS where there isn't enough nutrients to feed the corals' increased growth with the high alkalinity then you will get burned tips because the skeleton is growing faster than the flesh. When the skeleton bursts through the flesh (that sounds a lot more dramatic than it looks haha) then you will get seriously stunted growth for many weeks. Not worth the risk imo.

All you have to do to fix the current issue is back off the NoPoX dosing and allow PO4 and NO3 to rise. Should be fairly simple - you clearly have enough aerobic and anaerobic bacteria currently.

Also, FWIW, Prodibio BioDigest and BiOptim dosing is very mild. IME, you won't see a nutrient reduction using Prodibio as suggested on the package, though it may help maintain low nutrients. I used to use Prodibio BD and BO religiously on my previous SPS tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hey Randy, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Last night I read and re-read your thread on nitrate dosing and plan on picking up some stump remover within the hour. If I understand this correctly the addition of nitrate may lower the amount of PO4 (.02 via my spanking new Hanna UL kit). Should this be a concern in the short term? My plan is to kill the skimmer and layoff the NO3POx until I have this under control. I don't believe Ill run any Prodibio for a while either as it was introduced simply to create a large bacteria population to speed up the cycling process. My "guess" is that the Prodibio was frivolous and that I have fostered a very large and hungry bacterial population.

I wouldn't worry yet if phosphate is at 0.02 ppm. Even 0.01 ppm is likely fine.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So do you know if NoPoX provides faculative anaerobes or at least a combination of obligate aerobes and obligate anaerobes? I don't know which strains of bacteria are in NoPoX.

There are no bacteria in NOPOX. The organic matter in it is just simple organics such as acetic acid, ethanol, methanol, and isopropanol. The last two are at much lower levels than the first two,a nd may just reflect denatured ethanol as the ethanol source.