Some fish should just be left in the ocean

[Untamedrose]

Well that's certainly scientific!

Well do you have an answer? an educated guess?
We know that some of the fish are likely to die during capture.
We know that some of the fish are likely to die being transported to the wholesalers.
We know that some of the fish are likely to die being transported to the LFS.
We know that some of the fish are likely to die getting home/being shipped to us/right away do to disease or bad tank conditions.

So it's Something....

 

[ReeferBob]

Well do you have an answer? an educated guess?
We know that some of the fish are likely to die during capture.
We know that some of the fish are likely to die being transported to the wholesalers.
We know that some of the fish are likely to die being transported to the LFS.
We know that some of the fish are likely to die getting home/being shipped to us/right away do to disease or bad tank conditions.

So it's Something....

"Something" - yes most likely it is "something". But I choose not to guess based on incomplete data and anecdotal evidence. Otherwise I am no better than those that attribute a dead coral reef to "global warming" simply because it fits their narrative.

You can choose to only purchase captive bred fish and I may make the same choice. But I do not fault those that choose not to make that choice and I am not going to summarily condemn the entire industry due to the same incomplete/anecdotal evidence mentioned above.

 

[Untamedrose]

No sweety.... the people who go Oh ya but I kept such fish(know hard keeper) for 15 years is an example of anecdotal evidence.

The FACT that SOME fish Die, from causes directly related to our hobby. Isnt disputeable, you cant agrue that None do
Right now the only "study"(big air quotes) is from the eco wacko's who say 99% of the fish taken out of the ocean for the reefing community will be dead within a year. Thats what the "dark hobby" movie, will be telling the general public. We have no counter right now..we have IDK dont talk about it.
and I see nothing wrong with going ok that doesnt sound right...so just how bad is it?

And How can we make it better? Cause I'm pretty sure we can make it better(in fact I know we can from just whats been done in the past decade) for both the reefs and our tanks.

Going LALALALALALA lets never even consider the issues b/c it might step on some toes is just pure ignorance.

 

[4FordFamily]

Please share your techniques. I think we should build a husbandry data base specific to difficult to keep animals.

DJ

Essentially it starts with proper qt procedures proposed by Humblefish, I mix lots of frozen foods and mix with selcon, I feed live blackworms on occasion, and more importantly tons and tons of red nori and green nori.

The rest I don't know if it can be taught as much as its inherent and you learn how and what to do and when. I started with easier fish and over the years I moved to more difficult fish. I didn't try an idol until 10 years in the hobby almost.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I think it's dumb that people buy wild corals and dip them in a pesticide and after bringing up points of data that suggest harm is happening. And then aside from my personal experience of corals experiencing necrosis, they flame me and say it's perfectly fine given the number of corals that have been subjected to it and survived.

As far as thing being left in the ocean, we need to carry through and shun the mentality that just because something CAN survive, it's ok. That's the dumbest mentality ever when it comes to housing creatures.
We know a tang can live quite a while in a 5 gallon tank, but that doesn't mean it should be. What do people say then? 'It's still alive and thriving! Sure, it looks like this, but hey, it's still alive so it's perfectly fine!'

 

[eatbreakfast]

I think it's dumb that people buy wild corals and dip them in a pesticide and after bringing up points of data that suggest harm is happening. And then aside from my personal experience of corals experiencing necrosis, they flame me and say it's perfectly fine given the number of corals that have been subjected to it and survived.

As far as thing being left in the ocean, we need to carry through and shun the mentality that just because something CAN survive, it's ok. That's the dumbest mentality ever when it comes to housing creatures.
We know a tang can live quite a while in a 5 gallon tank, but that doesn't mean it should be. What do people say then? 'It's still alive and thriving! Sure, it looks like this, but hey, it's still alive so it's perfectly fine!'

I'm just curious at what point you just change your profile name to something related to Bayer. I don't care about coral dips whatsoever, yet every time I see you post a thread, even on unrelated subject there is some comment on Bayer or pesticide dips. I'm not sure if you realize how it comes off, but it doesn't help neutral parties see your point, it just comes off as "uh oh, here he comes, yet again, on this subject"

 

[jonb154]

Why does the life of a captive bred fish matter less than the life of a wild caught fish? The key is education, we should be more worried about pooling resources and learning how to keep fish alive. But I feel when I read this argument that it's ok to buy captive bred fish without any knowledge when the truth of the matter is it takes time to learn proper husbandry. I can't tell you how many "easy " fish have died in my care because of any number of causes, but as your education on the subject increases your success rate does as well. FWIW I won't buy a moorish idol or a cbb because I don't believe they are meant to be in a tank but I think as the popularity of our hobby increases the demand for specialized food will increase and that will increase the survival rate of fish that are harder to keep.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I'm just curious at what point you just change your profile name to something related to Bayer. I don't care about coral dips whatsoever, yet every time I see you post a thread, even on unrelated subject there is some comment on Bayer or pesticide dips. I'm not sure if you realize how it comes off, but it doesn't help neutral parties see your point, it just comes off as "uh oh, here he comes, yet again, on this subject"

You're entitled to your opinion. But in the face of such flaming, I just take it as, I have to try harder. Because I guarantee that people won't stop suggesting people use it.
It's like people who questioned the safety of formaldehyde, cocaine, heroin, alcohol, DDT, preservatives in food, parabens, and what? Even pesticides.

Btw, how are they neutral parties if they're already familiar with me and supposedly have an opinion?

I surely wouldn't be filled with such fervor if people would have given me more consideration. But after you get tired of something, you don't really give a crap how you come across.

 

[eatbreakfast]

You're entitled to your opinion. But in the face of such flaming, I just take it as, I have to try harder. Because I guarantee that people won't stop suggesting people use it.
It's like people who questioned the safety of formaldehyde, cocaine, heroin, alcohol, DDT, preservatives in food, parabens, and what? Even pesticides.

Btw, how are they neutral parties if they're already familiar with me and supposedly have an opinion?

I surely wouldn't be filled with such fervor if people would have given me more consideration. But after you get tired of something, you don't really give a crap how you come across.

I'm not trying to flame in any way. I don't care about coral dips one way or another at all. I mostly stick with fish and fish related threads, yet, it seems everytime I see you post, there is an intro related to Bayer, even in very unrelated threads. It's exhausting, and isn't taken seriously. If you want it to be taken seriously, keeping it with related subjects and not having it consume other subjects will help.I wasn't sure if you were aware how it comes across. Oftentimes people that are that passionate on a specific subject can lose perspective on how it appears to outsiders. I am actually trying to help your cause by pointing out where you losing credibility. Take it how you will, just trying to let you know.

 

[Tahoe61]

I surely wouldn't be filled with such fervor if people would have given me more consideration. But after you get tired of something, you don't really give a crap how you come across.

And that is when your message falls on deaf ears.
An individual makes their case and allows the receiver of that message to determine the messages validity as it relates to their situation.

 

[Ike]

Agreed.
I stopped feeling bad when I saw a picture of a basketful of dead powder blue tangs being sold for pennies for people to eat. I think any fish will have better luck with me than becoming someone's lunch. Food fisheries remove many more tons of fish from the ocean than the hobby ever will.

I'll stop caring as much that people are needlessly killing fish when they start serving moorish idol cakes the night theirs kicks the bucket.

I can forgive a poor islander for eating a reef fish because it's what's available to them, but I have a hard time forgiving the aquarist that kills a moorish idol because they just want one and don't know any better or don't care that it's almost certain to die an untimely death.

 

[Salty.Reefer]

Why does the life of a captive bred fish matter less than the life of a wild caught fish? The key is education, we should be more worried about pooling resources and learning how to keep fish alive. But I feel when I read this argument that it's ok to buy captive bred fish without any knowledge when the truth of the matter is it takes time to learn proper husbandry. I can't tell you how many "easy " fish have died in my care because of any number of causes, but as your education on the subject increases your success rate does as well. FWIW I won't buy a moorish idol or a cbb because I don't believe they are meant to be in a tank but I think as the popularity of our hobby increases the demand for specialized food will increase and that will increase the survival rate of fish that are harder to keep.

I made the argument earlier in the thread that no matter what I feel extremely bad when a fish dies under my care but I feel even worse when that fish was wild caught. Do you believe it is just as bad when a gold fish dies as a achilles tang or modish idol? This may sound a little grim but I think (especially in todays world with fancy clowns) that captive bread clownfish are almost equivalent to goldfish. Im not saying anything about you possibly keeping these hard to keep wild caught fish, just trying to see what you think.
For me, I know captive bread clown fish would have never had an impact on our natural world. Wild caught tangs on the other hand help with algeas that can cover giant reefs in the wild. While I do not look down upon people who keep these fish (I may be one in the future who knows), I do believe you are correct that it is all about education. That is why I love places like to get my information from R2R and not skeezy lfs owners. When I was little a lfs owner convinced me it would be ok to keep a Humu and flame angle with about 5 other fish in a 34g bio cube. Ugh still feel bad that I was so gullible.

 

[Salty1962]

Yes,

It does seem to be all about perspective, eh? Who here doesn't want to push the envelope? Who here doesn't want to to take this to the next level? Millions of animals die each year as a result of our arrogance, avorrace, and vanity - yet millions more die to feed us. So, my question is - where do you stand? Are you a part of the problem? - or do you want to be a part of the solution? Do you want to learn how, and then tell the world? Help to be the solution? Nothing ventured - nothing gained, right?

Think about the poor jerks 30 years ago, who were keeping corals and anemones under mercury vapor street lights to try to find the right combination in order to keep these wonderful organisms that we share this planet with, alive. Understand that this has never been about those delicate organisms - it's always been about you - and your understanding of the world around you, and the way that these processes work. This is, and always will be, about Man's mastery of his environment. Look, this has much larger ramifications than just keeping X, or Y alive. This ultimately boils down to our mastery of our own destiny. If we understand it, then we can manipulate it. Folks, this is much bigger than all of us. This is innate. Within us all. Understand your environment - and we survive. Every native, indigenous population up to this point has understood this intuitively. Only within the past 100 years has this 'artificial' environment been created to sustain us.

As mere hobbyists, we get it. Unfortunately, most don't. They wander through life, provided for without an inkling of what it takes to be who they are. Sheeple, I've heard them referred to. We are different. We learn who, what, where and why, and we educate the rest of the world. I don't know if you all understand this, but we are the giants that future generations are going to stand on the shoulders of. What we do here will have ramifications far down the line. Many species of coral only exist in our aquariums. They are gone from the wild. Not because of us, as aquarists, but because of us as human beings en mass. Care? Then Learn. Use your mind, find a way. Then educate, as if your life depends upon it - Because it probably does, and so does everyone else's. Be a part of the solution.

DJ

Well said!