Spectrum and Dinoflagellate Outbreak?

[Dana Riddle]

Dry rock is without a doubt another high factor. But, not all tanks having the problems have used dry.
I believe the spectrum is part of it and we're seeing more of that spectrum with higher LED use. I don't believe it's the only cause or not still part of a chain of events, but I think it makes it much easier for it to occur.

Dana, that FL rock ROCKS. Just watch the mantis. I know some that didn't have any in large orders but I filled a 29g once and had 3 of the little buggers in there. This wasn't Keys rock though, Gulf FL mid coast area. It would be great rock for a sump if worried about mantis. Post some pics of it when you get it!

The company recommends placing the rock into 1.030 or so water and claims this will make crabs, worms, shrimp, etc. abandon it. It's then up to me to decide who gets a pass. It's beautiful tock, and is two weeks into the curing process. Hopefully, only one week to go. Then the real work begins. I'll post photos when it's time.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I believe the spectrum is part of it and we're seeing more of that spectrum with higher LED use.

What spectrum?

 

[TexasTodd]

What spectrum?[/QUOTE

LOL whatever is showing up more with most LED settings. Look back at what Hans Werner posted.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Sorry, i thought you had new information that would have pursueded your opinion.

I dont know how many times I've read "I changed this and now I have dinos". Well, why did you change that? "Because my corals weren't looking right".

Or maybe its because you had dinos growing and didn't notice it till after the change? With lighting, it something I would see as that in regards to coral turning pale due to nutrient reduction. The reefer could assume lights not operationally adequate. Definitely circumstantial but I'll have to take the Richard Ross route on this one and wait till its proven.

 

[Mark Gray]

The company recommends placing the rock into 1.030 or so water and claims this will make crabs, worms, shrimp, etc. abandon it. It's then up to me to decide who gets a pass. It's beautiful tock, and is two weeks into the curing process. Hopefully, only one week to go. Then the real work begins. I'll post photos when it's time.

Back many years ago when live rock came from the South Pacific they recommended putting it in Freash water for 20 minutes and then picking out what you wanted to keep. I did this on one tank had a mantis shrimp make it through tough little buggers. Good Luck I have an outbreak right now of Dinoflagellate, I have dry rock. Just have to wait to see how bad it will be

 

[Dana Riddle]

Back many years ago when live rock came from the South Pacific they recommended putting it in Freash water for 20 minutes and then picking out what you wanted to keep. I did this on one tank had a mantis shrimp make it through tough little buggers. Good Luck I have an outbreak right now of Dinoflagellate, I have dry rock. Just have to wait to see how bad it will be

Thanks! I've already pulled out a couple of questionable crabs and, unfortunately, a few brittle stars. I hope the recommendations will get the mantis shrimps as well!

 

[ACF930]

I just got my new frag tank running with Orphek Atlantik V4s - and within a few days, Dino outbreak! The frag tank is plumbed directly into my display, which runs Ocean Revive (and never had a Dino problem before). It contains just frag racks and a Gyre.

To battle the Dino, I lowered the White and Red channels on the V4 by 50%, dosed H2O2, installed a UV Sterilizer, and siphoned out the Dinos. I believe the Dino has stalled, but another few weeks will tell.

Although I’m not sure which method had an effect, I do believe the new Orphek Atlantik V4 caused the break out. I was running it’s Coral Color and Growth program, which has a high white channel. This spectrum probably energized the Dino in my water (which has laid dormant in my DT under mostly blues).

I guess these V4s are really strong in aiding in photosynthesis. A lot of people like these lights, so I’ll keep them for now. In the meantime, I’ll keep my tank more blue. I like that look anyways.

 

[Lasse]

I do not think that the outbreak is only caused by the V4:s We are using 9 pieces of V4, with all channels at 80 % without any dino problems at all ( we = The public aquarium of the Maritime museum in Gothenburg)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ACF930]

I do not think that the outbreak is only caused by the V4:s We are using 9 pieces of V4, with all channels at 80 % without any dino problems at all ( we = The public aquarium of the Maritime museum in Gothenburg)

Sincerely Lasse

My frag tank is using the same water supply as my DT. The main difference is the light (ie V4), which has a wider and stronger spectrum than Ocean Revive (over my DT). Also, the Dino fortunately never spread to my DT. It stayed isolated in my frag tank.

I know the V4 doesn’t activate Dino in everyone’s tank, but maybe I have a strand that got activated by its spectrum.

 

[Mark Gray]

I also second the view on the V4 I am running the light I have had Dinoflagates for about a year. I think it's going away now. I have removed my cheato, no water changes, feeding heavy. I am just now starting to get a little green

 

[ACF930]

I also second the view on the V4 I am running the light I have had Dinoflagates for about a year. I think it's going away now. I have removed my cheato, no water changes, feeding heavy. I am just now starting to get a little green

Are you running one of their preset programs? I was running the Coral Color and Growth program with the channels’ %s modified proportionally to target PAR levels (ex. 200-500 at top for acros and 100 at bottom). Even the bottom rack had Dino. In fact, there are areas in my DT (running Ocean Revive) that have higher PAR levels but never Dino.

Some say Orphek designed these lights to run 100% all channels, but I’m afraid to now.

Here is my new schedule with heavier blues. I’m also running strong and soft clouds (per Orphek’s suggestion). I really hope I don’t regret going T5 and the Dino stays away with this schedule. It’s worst than a GHA outbreak.

 

[Mark Gray]

Are you running one of their preset programs? I was running the Coral Color and Growth program with the channels’ %s modified proportionally to target PAR levels (ex. 200-500 at top for acros and 100 at bottom). Even the bottom rack had Dino. In fact, there are areas in my DT (running Ocean Revive) that have higher PAR levels but never Dino.

Some say Orphek designed these lights to run 100% all channels, but I’m afraid to now.

Here is my new schedule with heavier blues. I’m also running strong and soft clouds (per Orphek’s suggestion). I really hope I don’t regret going T5 and the Dino stays away with this schedule. It’s worst than a GHA outbreak.

I am running mine at 100% but do ramp them up and down in the morning and at night. Yes this is my first tank that I have ever had this problem with Dinoflagates. For me it has killed a lot coral and cleanup crew wise. I still have it a little but it's not as bad as it was. Been in the hobby for 40 years now this was new to me

 

[Lasse]

Interesting to know nutrient levels in your tanks. These fixtures give a high photosynthetic response – high demand of inorganic nutrients – if not enough the power of the fixture maybe can promote the growth of organisms that can use other nutrient sources, transfer them to inorganic sources and use own produced inorganic nutrients in order to fuel the photosynthesis – only my 5 cents. So either lower the PAR or ad more nutrients if they are limiting coral and normal algae growth.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

I do not think that the outbreak is only caused by the V4:s We are using 9 pieces of V4, with all channels at 80 % without any dino problems at all ( we = The public aquarium of the Maritime museum in Gothenburg)

Sincerely Lasse

A small correction Some Dinoflagellates (and some Cyanobacteria) started to grow a month or two after we started up that system(Dinoflagellates only in one out of six propagation tanks). They went away after a week, probably due to raising the nutrients a bit. NO3 and PO4 were very low.
When I think of it, it was in a tank with 5 Hydra, not Orphek.. But the same system as the Orpheks. Anyway, my point was it could be due to low nutrients

My frag tank is using the same water supply as my DT. The main difference is the light (ie V4), which has a wider and stronger spectrum than Ocean Revive (over my DT). Also, the Dino fortunately never spread to my DT. It stayed isolated in my frag tank.

I know the V4 doesn’t activate Dino in everyone’s tank, but maybe I have a strand that got activated by its spectrum.

I've seen this many times in frag tanks or other tanks connected to a larger system. Cyano or Dinos start to grow in the small tanks, not in the larger(and older) DT. Could be many reasons of why. If I'm allowed to guess I would say new tank = new and clean substrate to grow on. Plus the possibility for more nutrients swings(e.g. Low nutrients levels) in a small frag tank due to more light, lower bioload and less volume compared to the DT.

I would not change the light settings(unless it unnecessary high PAR levels). That would be another change, and opportunistic organisms like dinos and cyano are good at dealing changes.

My advice would also be to add nutrients to the frag tank, and get a good CUC.

 

[Mark Gray]

Interesting to know nutrient levels in your tanks. These fixtures give a high photosynthetic response – high demand of inorganic nutrients – if not enough the power of the fixture maybe can promote the growth of organisms that can use other nutrient sources, transfer them to inorganic sources and use own produced inorganic nutrients in order to fuel the photosynthesis – only my 5 cents. So either lower the PAR or ad more nutrients if they are limiting coral and normal algae growth.


Sincerely Lasse

I am away from my tank till next week I have these all in a book but I am out working. This is probably one reason the Dinoflagates have hit this tank so hard. Here are the numbers that I remember.
Cal. 420
Al . 8
Mag. 1295
NO3 2
PO4. 2

One other problem I have is reading these colors on the test kits using Red Sea right and Hanna checkers for Cal Alk PO4

 

[Lasse]

Is it 0.2 PO4 or 2?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mark Gray]

Is it 0.2 PO4 or 2?

Sincerely Lasse

Hi Lasse yes .2 I am on my phone, and all those numbers are what I am remembering. I will be back home Tuesday night. At least right now often this tank runs it's self. But soon I will have to stay home more due to my wife's treatment l.

 

[ACF930]

Interesting to know nutrient levels in your tanks. These fixtures give a high photosynthetic response – high demand of inorganic nutrients – if not enough the power of the fixture maybe can promote the growth of organisms that can use other nutrient sources, transfer them to inorganic sources and use own produced inorganic nutrients in order to fuel the photosynthesis – only my 5 cents. So either lower the PAR or ad more nutrients if they are limiting coral and normal algae growth.


Sincerely Lasse

Currently, my NO3 is 20 and PO4 0.08. Prior to the Dino outbreak, my NO3 and PO4 were both undetectable (on Salifert kits), so I think that created an environment for Dinos to brew. During the outbreak, I started to dose Spectracide Stump Remover to increase my NO3. I'm letting it drop now to hit the desired range of 5-10 ppm and will keep my PO4 around 0.02-0.1. I wonder if there were minimal/unnoticeable Dino in my DT, because my Ocean Revive is weaker there, and I have 4 Tangs to keep algae at bay (as well as add nutrients). However, in my frag tank, the V4s energized the Dinos a lot more there.

Lowering channels 1 and 4 seem to help. New Dinos still developed on my frag racks, but they are not as rampant as when I had those channels doubled. I wonder if I should also lower the actinic channel 3 (since that spectrum is also low on my Ocean Revive over the DT)?

My next plan of attack are to:

1) Try dosing Vibrant (works for some people against certain strands).
2) Keep NO3 5-10 ppm and PO4 0.02-0.1
3) Continue to dose H2O2 every day (1 ml per 10 gallons); I noticed more skimmate while dosing.
4) Continue to run the UV Sterilizer 24/7 (but have not noticed any impact); perhaps the Dinos are not floating down into my DT sump and through it.
5) Add an Achilles Tang, Lawnmower Blenny, and some snails; although, I hope they don't die from eating the dinos; I'll monitor them.
6) Be patient

 

[Sallstrom]

Currently, my NO3 is 20 and PO4 0.08. Prior to the Dino outbreak, my NO3 and PO4 were both undetectable (on Salifert kits), so I think that created an environment for Dinos to brew. During the outbreak, I started to dose Spectracide Stump Remover to increase my NO3. I'm letting it drop now to hit the desired range of 5-10 ppm and will keep my PO4 around 0.02-0.1. I wonder if there were minimal/unnoticeable Dino in my DT, because my Ocean Revive is weaker there, and I have 4 Tangs to keep algae at bay (as well as add nutrients). However, in my frag tank, the V4s energized the Dinos a lot more there.

Lowering channels 1 and 4 seem to help. New Dinos still developed on my frag racks, but they are not as rampant as when I had those channels doubled. I wonder if I should also lower the actinic channel 3 (since that spectrum is also low on my Ocean Revive over the DT)?

My next plan of attack are to:

1) Try dosing Vibrant (works for some people against certain strands).
2) Keep NO3 5-10 ppm and PO4 0.02-0.1
3) Continue to dose H2O2 every day (1 ml per 10 gallons); I noticed more skimmate while dosing.
4) Continue to run the UV Sterilizer 24/7 (but have not noticed any impact); perhaps the Dinos are not floating down into my DT sump and through it.
5) Add an Achilles Tang, Lawnmower Blenny, and some snails; although, I hope they don't die from eating the dinos; I'll monitor them.
6) Be patient

If you do 1-6 and the dinos goes away, you don't know what it was that made them go away. Any many changes at once rarely helps when running a reef tank IMO.
I would stick to 2, 5 and 6 if it was my tank

 

[madweazl]

Diatoms or dinoflagellates popped up in our 150g a few days ago. The tank has been up and running for eight months now but it didn't have any corals (tried some test frags a few months back that all died). The tank was started with dry rock (had one or two pieces of live rock from our 75g to seed it) but on Jan 31st, I decided to snatch a couple more rocks from our 75g that also had a couple acroporas that I was willing to sacrifice (main colonies were still in the 75g). After a week, they looked normal. On Feb 7th, I decided to transfer most of the corals from the 75g to this 150g. For the first few days (four I believe), everything appeared normal and the tank was consuming about .3 dKh per day (negligible prior to the corals being added).

For lighting, I run six T5s (B+, ABS, P+, B+, ABS, B+) and four Kessils A360s. The Kessils were running at 25% intensity and 50% color but I changed the intensity and color to peak at 15% around Feb 11th (wish I had documented the change). I started getting some diatoms or dinoflagellates forming on the rocks approx Feb 15th. They die off (for lack of a better term) but return a few hours after lights on.

Lastly, alkalinity consumption dropped significantly when the diatom/dinoflagellates showed up (dosing went from 60ml per day down to 15ml per day). I'll revert the changes to the intensity/color channel on the Kessils and observe. I expect the nutrient levels to continue to rise as things balance out with the increased bio-load so it will likely remain impossible to attribute anything to a single source.

So there are a number of things that happened at once so it's impossible to narrow down a causal factor. The fish load had been low (three small fish for about seven of the months the tank has been up) so the NO3 and PO4 have largely been too low to measure. The tank now has 18 fish and obviously gets fed a lot more. As of Saturday, NO3 was approx 1ppm and PO4 was .006ppm. I also sent in a Triton ICP and N-Doc so it will be interesting to see what is shown there (Triton results typically show about 1/3 of the PO4 my Hanna comes up with so I'm expecting the ICP to show 0).