SPS color fading

ZaneTer · Mar 28, 2018

True zero is virtually an impossibility. No one can deny that.
The point I am trying to discuss with you is that myself, @Reef Jeff and many other have managed to strip out water of phosphate to a level that was damaging to corals and has resulted in us having to dose phosphate to keep our levels acceptable.

I run a large skimmer and a 40g fuge with chaeto, that is all I do for nutrient export. I have never needed to carbon dose.

Are you saying that we are all wrong and that the test kits are wrong too?

ZaneTer · Mar 28, 2018

OP
Sorry for detailing your thread. It wasn’t my intention.

jda · Mar 28, 2018

Of course our test kits are inaccurate... they are hobby grade tools. This is of no consequence to this discussion, though.

I am saying that having NSW level water parameters on it's down does not kill coral. There is something else doing it. N at .1 and P at .01 is not nutrient limiting to coral and they can thrive and have awesome color... I constantly have 1 to 3 on my Hannah Ultra Low test kit. The only way that I know the N level is to send off for IC testing since they all are just "clear" on a hobby-grade test kit.

ZEO tanks do not have dead coral. The ocean does not kill coral with low nutrients. I have not had coral die in my house. I think that you are masking another issue although I do not know what that issue is without more info... it could be alk, mag, dissolved CO2, too much flow or who knows. Lowering too fast can be an issue as can daily large water changes from siphoning. Sometimes, this can just be instability in a new tank less than 12-24 months old.

If people want to argue that they do not like the color of coral with low nutrients, then fine... they do look different with more contrast and brighter colors, but lose some saturation. However, death is not good.

True zero can be possible with aggressive organic carbon dosing, LC, GFO or the like and it is very dangerous to coral. The nuance between being low naturally vs artificially is huge.

Daniel@R2R · Mar 28, 2018

Interesting discussion so far.

VTBig053 · Mar 28, 2018

Wow, hot button issue! Great discussion folks and lots of interesting takes on this matter. I'll start with some more specifics on my current set up below:

Established: March 2017 using Real Reef Live Rock and CaribSea Arag Alive sand (sand bed about 1" at present)
Tank: EVO 13.5 gal AIO
Lighting: 2x AI Prime HD (I can post my current light settings if needed but I don't think its too much light causing the issue)
Filtration: Chamber 1 - Filter Floss (changed out twice weekly) > Purgien (100 ML packet) > Chemi Pure Elite (6.5 Oz bag); Chamber 2 - Chaeto and a bag Seachem Pond matrix in a low flow area at the very bottom of the chamber (harvest chaeto every two weeks)
Dosing: 8 ml each ESV B-Ionic two part

Livestock:
-Two Clowns
-Purple Fire Fish
-Snails - 1 Astrea, 1 Turbo, 1 Trochus, tons of cerith snails (breeding population in my tank), and tons of limpets (also breeding population in my tank)
-Two small hermit crabs
-Corals - a few higher light tolerant LPS (Acans and micromussa) and soft corals (GSP, Sunny D's), Montis (branching and encrusting), and various species of Acropora

Current parameters:
Alk - 7.8 dKH
Ca - 425 ppm
Mg - 1400 ppm
NO3 - 0 (red sea kit)
PO4 - 0 (salifert)
Salintiy - 1.026

I had a hair algae outbreak after rescaping my tank back in Nov. 2017. I began dosing Vibrant (1 ml per week) with my weekly water changes beginning in January and it worked to clear up the GHA but this led to a Cyano outbreak as well. I continued dosing Vibrant and performing weekly water changes that included thorough cleaning of the rear chambers and vacuuming the sand bed thoroughly to remove any build up. Over the several weeks of dosing Vibrant my NO3 levels went from ~10 ppm to 0 ppm at present. I stopped dosing Vibrant with my water changes about 3 weeks ago and the GHA is making a come back and while NO3 and PO4 remain at 0 ppm. I noticed the corals began fading approximately 2 weeks ago. SPS color was best during all of this when my NO3 was between 2-5 ppm for a few weeks which is what led me to believe that my tank is running too clean now. I have never tested anything but 0 on PO4 with the salifert kit. I had assumed I was over filtering the water with the purigen and carbon, so I had planned to begin slowly reducing the amount of purigen I am using until I can fully remove it and see if this helps to raise the NO3 and PO4 levels.

Purigen is a seachem product that uses little synthetic beads to absorb and bind organics in the water. I began using this product when I first established the tank because my NO3 levels at the time where between 15-20 ppm. I kept using it because it didn't seem to be causing any issues and I didn't want mess with anything that wasn't broken. I'd prefer to keep the tank filtration as natural as possible so if the mini Chaeto fuge can handle my nutrient export with out bottoming it out, I'd like to just run that. Obviously getting the GHA issue cleared up first is a priority since it sounds like it is likely out competing my corals for the limited amount of nutrients currently available.

Thanks again for all the input everyone. I am going to have to go back and re-read all the posts again when I have a little more free time later on today.

VTBig053 · Mar 28, 2018

ZaneTer said:
OP
Sorry for detailing your thread. It wasn’t my intention.

No worries man

ZaneTer · Mar 28, 2018

No one is saying that NSW levels are detrimental to corals. With regards to the ocean there are vast quantities of food available to corals day and night. The overwhelming majority of it is not available as free nitrate and phosphate but is instead bound with photo and zooplankton.

Our home aquariums lack both of those. We have to substitute in other ways.

Zeo is a notoriously fickle albeit beautiful way of running a tank with many people failing at it. Pastel colours are personally not my thing but each to their own and I doubt I have the skill to maintain such a low free nutrient environment. It is commonly presumed that Zeo systems provide a large amount of microbial food to corals, which allows the numbers for free nutrients to be lower.

I don’t believe true zero is possible, even under artificial manipulation in the home aquarium. Every time your feeder goes you will simply be introducing a bit.

You vehemently oppose the idea that anyone should ever have to dose nutrients into a tank that is run under “normal” conditions yet the chemistry section of this forum has posts about this exact thing virtually every day.

ZaneTer · Mar 28, 2018

Your tank is quite small which rules out using herbivorous fish but you could stick a sea hare in there if you could borrow one from a friend for a week at a time.
It would be impossible to keep one long term in that size tank. They are voracious eaters.
They also make a really interesting addition.

ZaneTer · Mar 28, 2018

Hahaha it is almost midnight here by me and yet I am having an energetic discussion with strangers on the internet.
Goodnight folks, I’ll catch up in the morning.

VTBig053 · Mar 28, 2018

evoreefer1320 said:
With a small tank like that i would really keep a eye on the alk swings. What are you using to keep up the alk and calcium? color changes can be do to lack of nitrate in the water ect but also can be do to alk swings. Also remember phosphate removers can also mess with your alk and cause problems.

Dosing 8 mL a day total over 4 doses. Alk and Ca have been pretty stable around 7.8 dKH and 420 - 440 ppm respectively for several weeks with the exception of an Alk swing during a 24 hour power outage at the beginning of March.

VTBig053 · Mar 28, 2018

Realized I didn't mention flow in my tank. I have a Sicce 0.5 (~180 GPH) for return pump and Jebao SW-2 set on the no. 2 power setting with the W2 wave setting on the opposite corner of the tank from the return.

evoreefer1320 · Mar 28, 2018

VTBig053 said:
Dosing 8 mL a day total over 4 doses. Alk and Ca have been pretty stable around 7.8 dKH and 420 - 440 ppm respectively for several weeks with the exception of an Alk swing during a 24 hour power outage at the beginning of March.

Sounds like you shouldn't be having any alk swings then. I would honestly take out chemi pure ect and just leave the chaeto and see if things color up a bit.

cumbeje · Mar 28, 2018

You need to be careful when you talk about zero nitrates and zero phosphates. We have two completely different scenarios:

1 st) A tank that truly has low nutrients either because it is a new tank or has very little nutrients added for example little to no fish.

2nd) Is a tank that reads low nutrients because the tank is either using or exporting nutrients faster than what is being created. So basically there isn't any excess nutrients hanging around in the water column but there is plenty of nutrients. If you have algae growth than you have plenty of nutrients in the water column. Out compete the algae by other processes taking up the nutrients faster than the algae can. This is a simplification obviously since there can be other limiting factors to algae growth.

29bonsaireef · Mar 28, 2018

I've been keeping smallish nano tanks on and off for 15+ years. Number one thing you need to worry about is maintaining stable Alk, Salinity, and Cal. Nutrients mean nothing imo on tanks this size. Your 3 fish alone will provide enough nutrients for your tank. I would never add anything to try and increase or decrease nutrient levels. LEDs are the number one cause of paling corals imho and I think so many people point to nutrients as the issue. My advice to you would be get par readings on your tank. Take out the Purigen, Seachem, Chemi Pure. Maintain your WC, I would do anywhere from 20-40% weekly. Feed your fish minimal amounts, and lastly keep those numbers stable and let the tank do its thing. Nutrients levels are always whacky the first year or so until things really start to mature and grow. Then they will fine tune and become more stable as the growing corals are using them.

jda · Mar 28, 2018

Get a Hannah Ultra Low HI736 checker. Salifert phosphate test kit is just a guess.

You are going to have to manage nitrate on your own. The real reef rock is covered/coated in purple epoxy and does not do a good job at denitrification. The sand will bind some phosphate for you to keep it low for a while, but it is not deep enough to do too much with nitrate. You do not have to add in any nitrate or phosphate - there is enough in there or you would not have algae.... it is just outcompeting the coral right now because there are no consumers.

Get some snails to eat the algae and pull/siphon as much out as you can. If you siphon, you can let the water sit in a bucket and the algae will either sink or float after a few hours and you can skim the clean water back off to reuse. This will start to work even if it seems like it might go on forever. As you do, the N and P will go up... probably significantly so keep track of it.

For the record... I do not vehemently oppose tanks with nutrients. I oppose the idea that low nutrients will kill coral. These are myths mostly by noobies with new tanks that have issues and look for something to blame or do not actually understand what caused the issue. If you think that growth or color is better with higher N and P, then I do see those threads that are real, but not death. You have other problems that you are not seeing by believing this. Low, but detectable nutrients (near NSW) have led to decades of happy reefing in my house with the best growth and color.

VTBig053 · Mar 28, 2018

29bonsaireef said:
I've been keeping smallish nano tanks on and off for 15+ years. Number one thing you need to worry about is maintaining stable Alk, Salinity, and Cal. Nutrients mean nothing imo on tanks this size. Your 3 fish alone will provide enough nutrients for your tank. I would never add anything to try and increase or decrease nutrient levels. LEDs are the number one cause of paling corals imho and I think so many people point to nutrients as the issue. My advice to you would be get par readings on your tank. Take out the Purigen, Seachem, Chemi Pure. Maintain your WC, I would do anywhere from 20-40% weekly. Feed your fish minimal amounts, and lastly keep those numbers stable and let the tank do its thing. Nutrients levels are always whacky the first year or so until things really start to mature and grow. Then they will fine tune and become more stable as the growing corals are using them.

The over chemical filtration of the water is what I was thinking. As I mentioned before I'd really prefer to rely less on chemical filtration and control nutrients through water changes and more natural export methods (Chaeto). I am currently changing ~3 gallons of water a week, so roughly 30%. I did borrow my local clubs PAR meter back in January and discovered that my lights were set too low (max 150 PAR directly under the puck near the water surface). I took some measurements with the intensity cranked up to get the PAR up to 300 and then slowly began working my way up to that with slight increases (like 1-2% at a time) in intensity every few days. I have not retested PAR since adding the second AI prime over the tank but did cut the power in half from the current settings when I added the second puck. I just put in the request to borrow the clubs PAR meter again so I will get some new readings in a couple of days.

jda said:
Get a Hannah Ultra Low HI736 checker. Salifert phosphate test kit is just a guess.

You are going to have to manage nitrate on your own. The real reef rock is covered/coated in purple epoxy and does not do a good job at denitrification. The sand will bind some phosphate for you to keep it low for a while, but it is not deep enough to do too much with nitrate. You do not have to add in any nitrate or phosphate - there is enough in there or you would not have algae.... it is just outcompeting the coral right now because there are no consumers.

Get some snails to eat the algae and pull/siphon as much out as you can. If you siphon, you can let the water sit in a bucket and the algae will either sink or float after a few hours and you can skim the clean water back off to reuse. This will start to work even if it seems like it might go on forever. As you do, the N and P will go up... probably significantly so keep track of it.

For the record... I do not vehemently oppose tanks with nutrients. I oppose the idea that low nutrients will kill coral. These are myths mostly by noobies with new tanks that have issues and look for something to blame or do not actually understand what caused the issue. If you think that growth or color is better with higher N and P, then I do see those threads that are real, but not death. You have other problems that you are not seeing by believing this. Low, but detectable nutrients (near NSW) have led to decades of happy reefing in my house with the best growth and color.

Yeah, the presence of algae always had me convinced that there was PO4 present despite what the test results said. When my NO3 dropped to undetectable levels with the test kit and a few corals started to lose color it got me thinking if maybe it really was indeed zero. I'd read all sorts of threads on corals losing color because of low nutrients. My corals are all still growing, it's just the color fading that has me concerned.

Perhaps, this is related to my lights being too intense. We'll find out soon if that's the case. In the meantime, I'd still like to begin reducing the amount of chemical filtration I am currently using. I think i'll start by reducing the amount of purigen until I can remove it entirely and see how things react and if this raises levels a bit then move from there.

ZaneTer · Mar 28, 2018

@VTBig053
Please keep us informed how things progress. Whether it is a success or failure it can all be used as a good learning example.

@jda
I would like to start a new thread in the chemistry section and would appreciate your input, if you are interested. We may be on opposite sides about the need to dose but I believe it could result in a very good discussion. Please let me know.

chomoney · Mar 28, 2018

ZaneTer said:
Sorry OP
I am going to offer advice in the opposite direction......sort of. I agree that you should get a grazer or two to get algae under control, not by starving it.

I disagree that you aren’t at zero. You are seeing clear signs of nutrient starvation and your test kits agree. It is extremely easy to bottom out NO3 or even PO4 with a modern tank setup. I have to dose for either nutrients to keep them at acceptable levels.
You will need to test for both NO3 and PO4 because while you are limited by nitrate currently your phosphate level may be rising at a rapid rate in the background.
It would also pay to keep a very close eye on your alkalinity level and adjust accordingly. If your corals cannot uptake the required nutrients then the cannot grow. If they cannot grow then alk demand plummets and your alk level in your tank will increase if you are dosing, you may even have to stop dosing alk for a short while.

If it makes you feel any better I bottom out regularly. My KH Director lets me know by showing the almost non existent alk demand. Nitrate takes a while to show when a coral is recovering or suffering from starvation....about 4 weeks in my experience. Phosphate shows a much quicker recovery or deterioration in about two weeks. Hope this helps.

This is great advice, and identical to the situation I’ve encountered.

1) nutrients bottom out
2) alk rises as consumption decreases
3) high alk + low nutrients + high light = dead corals

This scenario has cost me money, time, and much heartache. Definitely rectify it as soon as possible.

rstrann · Mar 29, 2018

Like chomoney, those three factors in succession have cost me headache in the past. Now I keep an eye on a few indicator corals to let me know when my nutrients are low and need testing. My skimmer is too good, and my austera will pale within just a week or so if my nutrients are dipping. I had such a hard time keeping nutrients up at one point that I removed all macroalgae, turned off the media reactors and skimmer, and fed like crazy for 3 months. Lost a couple acros but learned a hard lesson that could've been much worse. Btw, a tail spot blenny would fit in that little tank of yours and consume a bunch of algae.