SPS - Nitrate and PO4 imbalance?

[zemuss]

I was on another thread about a subject about dosing Potassium Nitrate, but the OP wanted me to start my own thread so here it goes.

what are your usual water parameters? Calc 420, ALK 8.5 to 9, NItrates 0 -2, PO4 .04 - .08
tank size? 60 gallon cube, total water volume 90
flow? two RW-8 on 50%.
model of lighting? ATI 6 bulb 24 " sun power with all blue spectrum bulbs on 8 hours per day. Here are the bulbs: ATI Blue Plus Bulbs

Given that my nitrates do come back undetectable and PO4 is detectable, my issue might be this right now. However once I change the parameters above would Potassium Nitrate help keep Nitrates where I need them?

Need your input @Russ265 and thanks..

 

[Russ265]

I was on another thread about a subject about dosing Potassium Nitrate, but the OP wanted me to start my own thread so here it goes.

what are your usual water parameters? Calc 420, ALK 8.5 to 9, NItrates 0 -2, PO4 .04 - .08
tank size? 60 gallon cube, total water volume 90
flow? two RW-8 on 50%.
model of lighting? ATI 6 bulb 24 " sun power with all blue spectrum bulbs on 8 hours per day. Here are the bulbs: ATI Blue Plus Bulbs

Given that my nitrates do come back undetectable and PO4 is detectable, my issue might be this right now. However once I change the parameters above would Potassium Nitrate help keep Nitrates where I need them?

Need your input @Russ265 and thanks..

ok so atm you have a po4 dominant system. introducing nitrate will drive po4 down to undetectable just by itself.

i would keep your alk 7.8-8.3 and try to avoid 9s unless you are super comfy there.

you are going to need a biopsy of this tank. i would aim for 3ppm nitrate with 2-5 being acceptable.

if we were to use seachem's flourish nitrogen i would dose an initial 5ml and then test. you may end up dosing 10-15ml before it is all over.

atm nitrates need to be dominant.

 

[zemuss]

ok thanks.

So instead of a Potassium Nitrate I should use the Seachems first? or are they inter changeable?

At the moment I am trying to get rid of the PO4.

Here is the list of macros:

• ATS - Algae Turf Scrubber : The scrubber grows about a t ball baseball size algae over a two week period and a mlb size baseball in about a month. I get good growth on both sides of the screen. It out competed the Chaeto I had in the fuge too.
• Mangroves - Slow growers. Don't know if they are really helping.

Any alternative macros which would work along with the ATS is encouraged to be suggested.

Here is the mechanical elements:

• GFO
• Rox Carbon
• Skimmer 24/7 - Should I run this more on a timed cycle?

What do you do to keep the PO4 in check? Can you describe your system for me?

I greatly appreciate the help here.

 

[Russ265]

ok thanks.

So instead of a Potassium Nitrate I should use the Seachems first? or are they inter changeable?

At the moment I am trying to get rid of the PO4.

What do you do to keep the PO4 in check? Can you describe your system for me?

I greatly appreciate the help here.

at your range of po4. introducing nitrate dropped my po4 by itself.

without nitrate you will just keep replacing gfo over and over to stay on top of it and i dont think it's affects are long enough lasting for a long term solution.

you can use any form of potassium nitrate. they are interchangeable. i am not knowledgable enough to give dosing instructions in regards to spectracide stump remover.

i would defer to @twilliard 's experience there. the results will be the same.

my system is a skimmerless system. i have a gfo reactor always offline. 300 system volume. algae turf scrubber that grows no algae. lol

 

[zemuss]

Ok cool I updated the post above because I didn't feel I gave enough information.

Do you do water changes?

 

[twilliard]

Ok cool I updated the post above because I didn't feel I gave enough information.

Do you do water changes?

Sorry just got back in
I am trying to catch up, the question is what should you use?
I will have to say they are all forms of no3 but it comes down to your tank size vrs the cost

 

[twilliard]

I was on another thread about a subject about dosing Potassium Nitrate, but the OP wanted me to start my own thread so here it goes.

what are your usual water parameters? Calc 420, ALK 8.5 to 9, NItrates 0 -2, PO4 .04 - .08
tank size? 60 gallon cube, total water volume 90
flow? two RW-8 on 50%.
model of lighting? ATI 6 bulb 24 " sun power with all blue spectrum bulbs on 8 hours per day. Here are the bulbs: ATI Blue Plus Bulbs

Given that my nitrates do come back undetectable and PO4 is detectable, my issue might be this right now. However once I change the parameters above would Potassium Nitrate help keep Nitrates where I need them?

Need your input @Russ265 and thanks..

It took about 2 weeks for my no3 to stabilize
Once you reach that point potassium nitrate will maintain it with less dosing.
At first it will look like its not staying where you want it. Hang in there and it will.
Flourish will be just fine for your 90 gallons but imo potassium nitrate will be less expensive to reach the goal.
I love this stuff!

 

[zemuss]

Ok Potassium Nitrate it is then..

Twilliard do you use any for of nutrient exports? I understance your using the triton method so I assume some sort of a macro.

So is my ATS sufficient ?

 

[twilliard]

Ok Potassium Nitrate it is then..

Twilliard do you use any for of nutrient exports? I understance your using the triton method so I assume some sort of a macro.

So is my ATS sufficient ?

Well I am running the helix 5000 skimmer and macros.
Now the skimmer does most all the work for me.
My ICP test shows .014 to .016 in po4
I have seen tremendous results in the last 30 days when it comes to coral.
The macros mainly supply the tank with nutrients. This allows me to not have to dose much aminos and carbs. Triton method

 

[zemuss]

Ok cool.. Going to be getting a dosing pump for this.

Are you manually dosing or have it hooked up to a pump ? I have two BRS dosing pumps but might get the BM T11.

 

[twilliard]

Right now I am manually dosing as I only need to dose every 3rd day.
I have been looking to see if I can include the no3 in my triton Elementz but still figuring out the calculations.

 

[Russ265]

Ok Potassium Nitrate it is then..

Twilliard do you use any for of nutrient exports? I understance your using the triton method so I assume some sort of a macro.

So is my ATS sufficient ?

i think being that you have 0 nitrate and are dosing it, shows that your system is sufficient.
either that, or you are housing no fish.

 

[zemuss]

I currently have 4 fish. Two Clowns, 1 Wrasse and a pajama cardinal. Feeding is every day with a pinch of flake food. On the week ends I try to feed twice a day.

 

[twilliard]

I currently have 4 fish. Two Clowns, 1 Wrasse and a pajama cardinal. Feeding is every day with a pinch of flake food. On the week ends I try to feed twice a day.

Dose 10Ml of my mix and test frequently
You will see your no3 rise and then from there every 24 hours till it stabilizes
You will see the difference soon!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I would qualify the comment about phosphate declining by adding nitrate.

That will only happen if there is an export method in your system (such as growth of macroalgae, corals, or problem algae) that is presently nitrogen-limited and which will increase with added nitrate.

I'm not sure that can be determined from the data given so far.

 

[Russ265]

I would qualify the comment about phosphate declining by adding nitrate.

That will only happen if there is an export method in your system (such as growth of macroalgae, corals, or problem algae) that is presently nitrogen-limited and which will increase with added nitrate.

I'm not sure that can be determined from the data given so far.

given that nitrate is undetectable and po4 is detectable. we can deduce that nitrogen is the limiting factor in any form of photosynthesis. including pale corals.

also this seems to be true with bacteria as well. (why you need both for biopellets/carbon dosing to function)

i havent done research on anaerobic bacteria, but it seems to be a common denominator.

is it a guarantee that po4 will drop given this limiting element? no. but it will add pressure for po4 to be used up if nitrogen is fully available.

edit-
after further reading it seems that nitrate inhibition of releasing po4 is roughly 2 mg/l or roughly 2ppm no3.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12868524

and another interesting piece... different site but they are siting the same study, this with wastewater.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0141022910002504

There are other sources online i skimmed through that state that the anaerobes use no3 as a receptor for the uptake of po4. While this is all somewhat fascinating, it goes along with what I have observed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11381897

just incase anyone wanted to check in to it. If there is any study on the contrary, im all ears (eyes)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

given that nitrate is undetectable and po4 is detectable. we can deduce that nitrogen is the limiting factor in any form of photosynthesis. including pale corals.

also this seems to be true with bacteria as well. (why you need both for biopellets/carbon dosing to function)

i havent done research on anaerobic bacteria, but it seems to be a common denominator.

I wouldn't assume that is true, but it might happen. He says nitrate is 0-2 ppm. Suppose it is 1 ppm. Is that necessarily nitrogen limiting? Not sure. It might even be iron limited, or some other metal. And even if it is N-limited, that doesn't necessarily mean that uptake of phosphate will be so significant that it will become undetectable.

 

[Russ265]

I wouldn't assume that is true, but it might happen. He says nitrate is 0-2 ppm. Suppose it is 1 ppm. Is that necessarily nitrogen limiting? Not sure. It might even be iron limited, or some other metal. And even if it is N-limited, that doesn't necessarily mean that uptake of phosphate will be so significant that it will become undetectable.

no. you are right that this is no silver bullet to drop po4 to undetectable levels and we all know all our tanks operate differently.

heck. an aquarist could feed more during the dosing causing an upswing in phosphate.

0-2ppm is a wide range and may not be the limiting factor, given that is within the degredation limit of anaerobic bacteria.

however i have not seen any detriment to 3-5ppm nitrate.

i have with <2 (and others according to pictures)

please understand....
i do not spark my views based on ego, but on getting to the truth. (which all science relies on) i welcome controversial views.

 

[hingisp]

Have learnt from this thread, thanks so much for the info. I have a similar problem to the OP. Sorry for jumping in hear , my tank seems to be phosphate dominant as well as you put it and my nitrates are undetectable, which has lead to my colours slowly getting paler with time. I was advised by my LFS to feed my tank more to get the nitrates up, which I started doing however all that happened was a diatom bloom on my substrate, so am looking at another way of increasing my nitrate. So from what I understand on this thread is I should get hold of a product that has potassium nitrate, or must I use the Seachem's flourish nitrogen?

 

[watchguy123]

@Russ265, I must be missing something. I do not believe any of the nitrate test kits are either accurate, precise or have a margin of error that anyone can reasonably state numbers like 3-5 ppm. Additionally what makes one consider that specific and narrow of a window an optimum range. I am apparently missing the background to these statements.

Heck just the margin of error of any of the test kits seems to make statements like this difficult to accept. Perhaps less than 10 or less than 20 but 3-5 as a goal seems spontaneous. Isn't salifert 0, 5,10, 25 for test results and API is 0, 5, 10, 20 and I don't remember red sea.

I truly enjoy the information and enthusiasm but need some fact checks to be more comfortable.

Oh, and @hingisp, that is an incredible avatar