SPS - Nitrate and PO4 imbalance?

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Have learnt from this thread, thanks so much for the info. I have a similar problem to the OP. Sorry for jumping in hear , my tank seems to be phosphate dominant as well as you put it and my nitrates are undetectable, which has lead to my colours slowly getting paler with time. I was advised by my LFS to feed my tank more to get the nitrates up, which I started doing however all that happened was a diatom bloom on my substrate, so am looking at another way of increasing my nitrate. So from what I understand on this thread is I should get hold of a product that has potassium nitrate, or must I use the Seachem's flourish nitrogen?

yup overfeeding is a terrible way of increasing nitrate.

anyway...

seachem flourish nitrogen is potassium nitrate and easily useable. if u get more daring get the stump remover stuff.

can also get sodium nitrate

whole point is, u can limit nuisance algae/bacteria by targetting what you need
 
@Russ265, I must be missing something. I do not believe any of the nitrate test kits are either accurate, precise or have a margin of error that anyone can reasonably state numbers like 3-5 ppm. Additionally what makes one consider that specific and narrow of a window an optimum range. I am apparently missing the background to these statements.

Heck just the margin of error of any of the test kits seems to make statements like this difficult to accept. Perhaps less than 10 or less than 20 but 3-5 as a goal seems spontaneous. Isn't salifert 0, 5,10, 25 for test results and API is 0, 5, 10, 20 and I don't remember red sea.

I truly enjoy the information and enthusiasm but need some fact checks to be more comfortable.

Oh, and @hingisp, that is an incredible avatar

do triton or upgrade your api kits then. my best advice.

i track my nitrates within .1 ppm.

you would not be the demographic to follow this line. this kind of strategy is targetting a different demographic of "reefer"

i am in no way trying to degrade anyone. but this is a tight shipped strategy.
 
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do triton or upgrade your api kits then. my best advice.

i track my nitrates within .1 ppm.

you would not be the demographic to follow this line. this kind of strategy is targetting a different demographic of "reefer"

i am in no way trying to degrade anyone. but this is a tight shipped strategy.


Wow

To start, Triton does not report nitrates.

Demographics, really? Incredible that your insightfulness goes so far beyond reefing.

So no pictures of your success in reef keeping , you have dino's that you can't get rid of, got the wrong info on triton . Won't list your test kit although you have stated red sea pro in posts, but it has neither the accuracy, precision or margin of error of .1 ppm. Blowing smoke and suggesting its fact, love it, you track within .1ppm, really.

It is a tight ship indeed you run. Good luck and good reefing. Always fascinating to come across a reefer of such knowledge and experience. And willing to guide other reefers, wow.
 
WOW, that a whole plate full of info.
Some made sense to me some other I have to re-read a few times.
Thanks guys
 
Wow

To start, Triton does not report nitrates.

Demographics, really? Incredible that your insightfulness goes so far beyond reefing.

So no pictures of your success in reef keeping , you have dino's that you can't get rid of, got the wrong info on triton . Won't list your test kit although you have stated red sea pro in posts, but it has neither the accuracy, precision or margin of error of .1 ppm. Blowing smoke and suggesting its fact, love it, you track within .1ppm, really.

It is a tight ship indeed you run. Good luck and good reefing. Always fascinating to come across a reefer of such knowledge and experience. And willing to guide other reefers, wow.
Wow hold on here.
If you have frustrations lets leave that out of the forums.
True triton does not test no3. And with the kits available they don't have to.
Yes red sea pro no3 is my choice of testing. No need to read to the .1ppm in no3.
I see no reason to bash a person here on R2R.
He has beaten the dinos and if Russ was blowing smoke I would not support that.

So please keep that stuff private in PM instead of throwing under the bus.
You have questions feel free to ask me :-)
 
@Russ265, I must be missing something. I do not believe any of the nitrate test kits are either accurate, precise or have a margin of error that anyone can reasonably state numbers like 3-5 ppm. Additionally what makes one consider that specific and narrow of a window an optimum range. I am apparently missing the background to these statements.

Heck just the margin of error of any of the test kits seems to make statements like this difficult to accept. Perhaps less than 10 or less than 20 but 3-5 as a goal seems spontaneous. Isn't salifert 0, 5,10, 25 for test results and API is 0, 5, 10, 20 and I don't remember red sea.

I truly enjoy the information and enthusiasm but need some fact checks to be more comfortable.

Oh, and @hingisp, that is an incredible avatar

FYI Salifert's Nitrate Kit offers the ability to test in 2 ranges.
There is a medium range which has the numbers 0, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100
and there is the low range where you divide the top numbers by 10 which can give you 0.2, 0.5, 1.0 etc.
 
I think there are some misleading statements and concepts in this thread. It's too simple of a picture to say a system is nitrate-limited or phosphate-limited just because one simply reads a lower reading on a hobbiest grade test kit. I'm not saying that the system might not actually be limited in one nutrient or another, I'm just saying it would be difficult to qualify it on just the two nutrient readings alone.

The resolution of our hobbiest test kits are a huge factor as well. I am not trying to take sides here but I know of no nitrate test kit that has a resolution down to 0.1 ppm. Also, while the validity of Triton test results are still in question, I definitely would not trust it for nutrient levels. The main reason is the holdtime on the sample. Could you imagine the bacterial inteference from a sample shipped from the States overseas to Triton labs that arrives at room temperature probably 1-2 weeks after the actual sample was taken? The hold times for nitrate for example for a professional lab was 48 hrs when shipped and stored below 4 degrees Celsius once the sample is collected. I know phosphate is a different animal but would you really trust the result of a 1-2 week old sample shipped at room temperature?
 
FYI Salifert's Nitrate Kit offers the ability to test in 2 ranges.
There is a medium range which has the numbers 0, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100
and there is the low range where you divide the top numbers by 10 which can give you 0.2, 0.5, 1.0 etc.

That is correct. But the instructions are to use the low range when the result appears to be less than 10 because I believe the color differentiation between 2, 5 and 10 is difficult to read. So then when you read through the side for this "low range", the color is more intense and thereby easier to read. The color differences are more dramatic between 25, 50 and 100 than they are between 2, 5 and 10. I think the suggestion of looking from the side is to help differentiate between an absolute value of 2, 5 and 10. And although if one had really good color detection skills, one might be able to read .2 or .5 or 1--but I think the goal in looking through the side is truly to differentiate between 2, 5 and 10.

But that goes back to my original question, can a hobbyist test kit differentiate between 1 ppm and be accurate and precise. I don't know what the limit is or is not. Certainly Triton does not give nitrate information. I don't think API has a low range beyond 0, 5, 10 and 20 and that leads to red sea pro. Red sea states its margin of error is .125 ppm but its color pie chart goes from 2ppm to 4 ppm and if above 4 ppm then a dilution is required. Once again, I question their margin of error and accuracy except perhaps when total NO3 is less than 1, then maybe at that point it is very precise.

Again the point of this is not to knock test kits but simply to question there accuracy and precision. And of course, try to understand what are the ideal ranges that can be described for nitrate management. If one can't measure it accurately because of testing limitations then it becomes difficult to talk about very small ranges that may have a relative large range of error. I am not saying that is the case, I am actually asking the question. And I think asking questions and sharing information and thoughts is great. But it is important to separate conjecture from fact. One way or another we all experiment with our tanks but that does not necessarily make our results either scientific or useful to any other tank. I think we need to discriminate between our best guess and science.

My experience is that zero nitrates is not good. And I aim for 10 ppm or less. I would like to be both more accurate and precise but I am not convinced that test kits differentiate well under 10 ppm. Most of us who have fish, and feed those fish generally have nitrates unless there is lots of export. Export in my mind includes any or all of the following: skimming, water changes, algae removal (scrubber or refugium) and carbon dosing. I just have not seen a tank with out carbon dosing, that has low nitrates. But since there are so many threads about this issue, I obviously stand corrected.
 
That is correct. But the instructions are to use the low range when the result appears to be less than 10 because I believe the color differentiation between 2, 5 and 10 is difficult to read. So then when you read through the side for this "low range", the color is more intense and thereby easier to read. The color differences are more dramatic between 25, 50 and 100 than they are between 2, 5 and 10. I think the suggestion of looking from the side is to help differentiate between an absolute value of 2, 5 and 10. And although if one had really good color detection skills, one might be able to read .2 or .5 or 1--but I think the goal in looking through the side is truly to differentiate between 2, 5 and 10.

But that goes back to my original question, can a hobbyist test kit differentiate between 1 ppm and be accurate and precise. I don't know what the limit is or is not. Certainly Triton does not give nitrate information. I don't think API has a low range beyond 0, 5, 10 and 20 and that leads to red sea pro. Red sea states its margin of error is .125 ppm but its color pie chart goes from 2ppm to 4 ppm and if above 4 ppm then a dilution is required. Once again, I question their margin of error and accuracy except perhaps when total NO3 is less than 1, then maybe at that point it is very precise.

Again the point of this is not to knock test kits but simply to question there accuracy and precision. And of course, try to understand what are the ideal ranges that can be described for nitrate management. If one can't measure it accurately because of testing limitations then it becomes difficult to talk about very small ranges that may have a relative large range of error. I am not saying that is the case, I am actually asking the question. And I think asking questions and sharing information and thoughts is great. But it is important to separate conjecture from fact. One way or another we all experiment with our tanks but that does not necessarily make our results either scientific or useful to any other tank. I think we need to discriminate between our best guess and science.

My experience is that zero nitrates is not good. And I aim for 10 ppm or less. I would like to be both more accurate and precise but I am not convinced that test kits differentiate well under 10 ppm. Most of us who have fish, and feed those fish generally have nitrates unless there is lots of export. Export in my mind includes any or all of the following: skimming, water changes, algae removal (scrubber or refugium) and carbon dosing. I just have not seen a tank with out carbon dosing, that has low nitrates. But since there are so many threads about this issue, I obviously stand corrected.

whoa. that is a lot said there. but hey. cant blame ya and you have some "ok" points. others, not so much.

anyway. ill show you .1ppm no3 i was talking about.



could call it 0 right? nah... let me show you "true" zero.



bad test?



back to .1




most hobbiests start with api. well that could be misleading. so can regular red sea kit. they do not have the granularity wihout the wheel.



notice how readable the pro kit is rather than rs or the api. they almost show 0. pro says "whoa buddy! you dosed nitrate!"




this is my reading today. yup. gotta dose nitrate, however im doing it slowly because of my previous dino issue "i cant even get rid of". not sure if this is a real jab at my husbandry practices or not.

when corals go from this


to



it shows my terrible husbandry practices doesnt it? unfortunately corals can go downhill quickly, but are slow to recover. so forgive me if im not throwing out totm photos.

...but hey. dont take my word for it. we have befores and afters of other's who are running it.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/help-my-sps-are-paling-and-i-dont-know-what-to-do.210035/

as far as the triton suggestion. i "assumed" that a full test included nitrate. it had tin, manganese, aluminum, etc. thats why we have forums. where people can point that out. i have even admitted i dont use triton but a lot of my good friends here do, and i trust their judgement.

if you have a beef with me we can settle it with a phone call, or we can play keyboard cowboy in private. i and others have personally seen the effects of 0 nitrate. others have been plagued with it for years until they started dosing the stuff. instead of the standard "just wait it out. itll settle" response. or the lower light, water change, drop po4, etc etc etc......

hope this clarifies things and that no hard feelings are felt, as i am genuinely not here to mess with anybody, and actually help through my experiences.

ps: notice all those tests are under 1 ppm short of the dosed which was 2. THAT is a tight ship.

-russ
 
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Hi guys great thread I'm currently using bio pellets and it 0 out my no3 in few weeks but I still had plenty cyano slime etc p0 4 so I decided what the he'll I'll give it a shot I brought my no3 up to 10 dosing no3 product
Keeping an eye on things looks like cyano has 80% gone away interesting so I'm experimenting sps still waiting to see if they will thrive with this kind of system
That being said proof is in the pudding and when a guy with a tank like watch guy posts I pay close attention he's got the colors and growth amazing sps tank he's got the proof I think he was just trying to make the point that it's not that simple to just dose no3 and all will be well sps will grow out the tank lol
Great thread and I'll see if I can post some pics later to add to it
 
Hi guys great thread I'm currently using bio pellets and it 0 out my no3 in few weeks but I still had plenty cyano slime etc p0 4 so I decided what the he'll I'll give it a shot I brought my no3 up to 10 dosing no3 product
Keeping an eye on things looks like cyano has 80% gone away interesting so I'm experimenting sps still waiting to see if they will thrive with this kind of system
That being said proof is in the pudding and when a guy with a tank like watch guy posts I pay close attention he's got the colors and growth amazing sps tank he's got the proof I think he was just trying to make the point that it's not that simple to just dose no3 and all will be well sps will grow out the tank lol
Great thread and I'll see if I can post some pics later to add to it

i think you missed the point of the thread or my post entirely.

0 nitrate kills symbiodynium in coral. -this is well known

no one said it made all corals thrive. big 3, lighting, flow etc all take their part.

1 aspect of coral health is sufficient nitrate in the system.
 
Hey guys i have 320 gallons and can never get a detectable nitrate amount in my tank using the salfriet test kits. I only run my skimmer 12 hours and try to feed heavily. Can you recommend a product for me to dose and how much a day to start?
 

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