SPS tank doing poorly - could ph be the problem, or indicate a problem?

[rocknut]

Hi Piranhapat, thanks for taking the time to read thru my thread and offer your thoughts. Just to clarify: I use a Hanna Phosphorus meter and am getting a reading of 8 or 9 which comes out to around 0.025 PO4 or close to that. I agree with the advice offered here that: 1) I made too many changes at once, and 2) had a few KEY levels get thrown off in sort of a chain reaction - stripped too many nutrients too quickly with increased biopellets and GFO, had an alk spike because of the reduced uptake from the corals while battling the algae bloom and lights out, and let my salinity slide because of super wet skimming.

Anyway, as suggested earlier, I have tried to "go back to basics" and just dose kalk thru a reactor to hopefully raise my ph, no additives, no GFO. Levels have stabilized, my alk has stuck right at 7.4 and calcium at 430. Salinity is now at 33, and will slowly raise up to 35. I guess at the point I just keep things stable and know that some corals will recover, and some won't?

Still have a very small amount of this mystery algae in the tank - mostly on the dead spots of the coral. I have gone back and forth between cyano and dinos, and I still can't decide. It looks like a brown cobweb. It does have the bubbles at the end of some pieces, but I wouldn't describe it as "snot" like. Also, I never lost any snails, and it doesn't go away at night. I'm debating running some chemiclean thru the tank if it is cyano, but don't want to do more harm than good.

 

[Dowtish]

What size is the tank?
What type of skimmer?
How many fish? How much do you feed?

 

[rocknut]

Hello Dowtish, here are some more details about my system, feeding, etc:

150 gallon display with a coast to coast overflow. Had this built so that along with good flow and a Tunze wave box, I would be able to move the maximum amount of detritus and waste out of the tank and to the skimmer.

I am running a Bubble King Supermarin 200 skimmer with Avast self cleaning head, and their skimmate locker.

I think I have a relatively small bioload?
(1) Lieutenant Tang (4")
(1) Melanurus Wrasse (4")
(2) Bartlett's Anthias
(2) Lyretail Anthias

I feed a pinch of flake in the morning before work, then about one cube of frozen at night. I just recently started feeding a small piece of Rod's Food once or twice a week.

I am not using any additives, just an Avast kalk stirred for all alk and calcium (which is working really well now). Only adding one cylinder of Prodibio Biodigest twice a month (weekly right now) to add bacteria trying to outcompete this algae.

I'm glad to get your feedback, Dowtish. I really enjoy your tank thread, and honestly, whenever I think of pulling my EcoBak pellets to continue to simplify my system, it's your thread that convinces me not to. . I did remove about 2/3 of the pellets and am down to 250ml right now. Wanted to be sure the amount of pellets was somewhat matched to my bioload, and the corals weren't getting stripped. This has increased my NO3 from undetectable to about 4, and my PO4 has actually dropped since removing my GFO to about 0.025.

 

[zemuss]

I wonder if you are having a alk swing?

Algae on the rocks just tell me that the NO3 and PO4 reading are false because this algae is growing. So like people have been saying get back to the basics and stop dosing for now. Do a few weeks of water changes and see if that stabilizes the tank.

 

[rocknut]

I think the alk swings are under control now. I have basically been testing daily and I haven't had a reading over 8dkh, or lower than 7.3 in about five weeks. Also, not adding any additives? Just some Prodibio Biodigest to help clean up the water, and outcompete the bad algae. Not sure about the accuracy of the readings I'm getting. Not getting any hair algae, and only clean film algae off the glass about every five days.

 

[rocknut]

Here is a photo from several weeks ago that shows the algae that I am seeing. I am seeing a very little amount of this algae right now. Few pieces here and there on the rock, but mostly on some of the damaged corals.



90% gone, but just can't seem to get this last little bit to go away.

You can also see some of the damage to the coral, and around the base of the Milli on the right of the photo. I am assuming that this base recession is from overdoing it with the GFO.

Also let it accumulate on the glass in one spot to get a better photo (the stringy junk between the spots of coralline):





Honestly, I think I understand where I went wrong - too aggressive with nutrient removal to fight this algae outbreak, which caused a domino effect of problems like alk spikes, stripping nutrients too fast, etc. Changed too many things at once, etc. At this point, would the consensus be to just let the tank sit for a while? Keep up on double water changes to correct whatever chemistry issues might be involved, but just let the tank stabilize? My Alk, Calcium, and Magnesium numbers have already stabilized. I'll keep an eye on NO3 and PO4, but since removing the GFO completely five weeks ago, and reducing my amount of EcoBak pellets, these seem to be holding at about 3-4 NO3, and just under 0.03 PO4. Hopefully this algae will go away on its own? I feel like anything I do to aggressively fight this algae throws something off with the SPS. I don't mind putting in the work, and being patient, just want to be sure I am pointing the ship in the right direction so things can start to heal up, and eventually start to improve. With that being said, I really appreciate how helpful everyone on Reef2Reef has been, and appreciate all the feedback and suggestions.

 

[rocknut]

Here are some photos showing the condition of the corals, and the algae:

This one still looks pretty good




Here is the birdsnest coral. Sure seems like cyano on the tips to me? Maybe a mix of algaes?




Here is a close up of one of the stags. You can clearly see the brown stringy algae on this one:





...and on this one. Frustrating because the areas that didn't loose tissue have great polyp extension:





This Blue Milli on had recession around the bottom of the base. I'm assuming this is from aggressive GFO:





This Monti doesn't have any recession, just poor, dry looking tissue. Strange thing with this coral: one day it will have great polyp extension, next very poor.

 

[Dowtish]

Hello Dowtish, here are some more details about my system, feeding, etc:

150 gallon display with a coast to coast overflow. Had this built so that along with good flow and a Tunze wave box, I would be able to move the maximum amount of detritus and waste out of the tank and to the skimmer.

I am running a Bubble King Supermarin 200 skimmer with Avast self cleaning head, and their skimmate locker.

I think I have a relatively small bioload?
(1) Lieutenant Tang (4")
(1) Melanurus Wrasse (4")
(2) Bartlett's Anthias
(2) Lyretail Anthias

I feed a pinch of flake in the morning before work, then about one cube of frozen at night. I just recently started feeding a small piece of Rod's Food once or twice a week.

I am not using any additives, just an Avast kalk stirred for all alk and calcium (which is working really well now). Only adding one cylinder of Prodibio Biodigest twice a month (weekly right now) to add bacteria trying to outcompete this algae.

I'm glad to get your feedback, Dowtish. I really enjoy your tank thread, and honestly, whenever I think of pulling my EcoBak pellets to continue to simplify my system, it's your thread that convinces me not to. . I did remove about 2/3 of the pellets and am down to 250ml right now. Wanted to be sure the amount of pellets was somewhat matched to my bioload, and the corals weren't getting stripped. This has increased my NO3 from undetectable to about 4, and my PO4 has actually dropped since removing my GFO to about 0.025.

I appreciate the comments about my thread. Thats cool to hear.

Well the skimmer is definitely more than capable which is always something to have when running pellets. I think it would do your system really well if you were to add more fish like twice what you currently have. I currently have 16 fish in a 120 and feed very heavily. Easily 3 times what you are feeding and have zero algae issues. There is something to be said about letting the pellets do what they are truly capable of. Yes, I clean my glass every other day but there is no algae on my rocks etc. Seeing the algae on the dead spots on the corals is normal, I get that too when something gets stung or falls into the sand. I honestly feel that Ecobak is not really designed ULNS systems like it says on the container. Ecobak works best in a high nutrient system that has the means to export it. i.e. Large Skimmer and pellets. With your big capable skimmer and water volume combined with just the six fish your corals will love you for adding more fish. I use reef chili and aminos once every 2-3 weeks. The rest of the feeding is fish food. pellets,flakes, nori, frozen mysis, Larry's reef frenzy etc. There have been times that my p04 was 0.12 for months at a time and my corals lokked fantastic, my point is, dont strive for ZERO, it only starves the corals when running pellets.

I think you are on the right track now as far as stability and stopping the domino effect of too many changes too fast. Adding the bacteria is always a good thing when running pellets so dont stop. I think the slimey algae will clear on its own.

Keep at it! and get some more fish!

 

[FarmerTy]

Just suggesting this because I ran across the same problem when I upgraded my tank, but my salinity was way off from what my hydrometer and even what my refractometer was reading. I was reading 1.027 when it was really 1.033, as confirmed by a digital salinity meter. I had very similar symptoms, where certain SPS looked fine with polyps out, but some looked like the one pictured, not so much STN or RTN, but just a general dissolving and fading of the flesh. Other colonies would be happy and open with all their polyps out, except for where it was STN'ing.

Just wanted to mention it might not hurt to double-check all your numbers. Maybe have another hobbiest run tests on your water to confirm your readings.

The low phosphate and nitrate readings along with the appearance of algae suggests to me that you should slowly ramp your GFO back up because your low readings, as many of suggested already, are due to the uptake by the algae/cyano/dinos. The levels aren't increasing because the algae/cyano/dinos are uptaking it.

 

[FarmerTy]

I should add that all my colors faded from my SPS, very similar to ULN conditions but more brown in color with it. So pastel... but pastel with hints of browning out.

My softies had no issues and the only thing that happened to my LPS colonies were a generally loss in color... like everything got washed over with a gray palette. My red and green war coral become a dull maroon... etc.

Hope my experience helps!

 

[rocknut]

I appreciate the comments about my thread. Thats cool to hear.

Well the skimmer is definitely more than capable which is always something to have when running pellets. I think it would do your system really well if you were to add more fish like twice what you currently have. I currently have 16 fish in a 120 and feed very heavily. Easily 3 times what you are feeding and have zero algae issues. There is something to be said about letting the pellets do what they are truly capable of. Yes, I clean my glass every other day but there is no algae on my rocks etc. Seeing the algae on the dead spots on the corals is normal, I get that too when something gets stung or falls into the sand. I honestly feel that Ecobak is not really designed ULNS systems like it says on the container. Ecobak works best in a high nutrient system that has the means to export it. i.e. Large Skimmer and pellets. With your big capable skimmer and water volume combined with just the six fish your corals will love you for adding more fish. I use reef chili and aminos once every 2-3 weeks. The rest of the feeding is fish food. pellets,flakes, nori, frozen mysis, Larry's reef frenzy etc. There have been times that my p04 was 0.12 for months at a time and my corals lokked fantastic, my point is, dont strive for ZERO, it only starves the corals when running pellets.

I think you are on the right track now as far as stability and stopping the domino effect of too many changes too fast. Adding the bacteria is always a good thing when running pellets so dont stop. I think the slimey algae will clear on its own.

Keep at it! and get some more fish!

Thank you so much, Chris. I have really had to rethink/relearn my approach to running an SPS system, especially with how to property use biopellets. I think you are right: adding some more fish = more food = more fish waste for the coral to eat. I read something that Sahin wrote over in his thread that was kind of a "lightbulb" moment for me: more import/more export. Seems really obvious, but I think I was so stuck on keeping nutrients undetectable, that I kind of missed the concept that you still had to provide the nutrients, just need to remove them before they breakdown.

Looks like its time to set up the fish QT tank again.

Seriously, thanks again!

Rocky

 

[rocknut]

Just suggesting this because I ran across the same problem when I upgraded my tank, but my salinity was way off from what my hydrometer and even what my refractometer was reading. I was reading 1.027 when it was really 1.033, as confirmed by a digital salinity meter. I had very similar symptoms, where certain SPS looked fine with polyps out, but some looked like the one pictured, not so much STN or RTN, but just a general dissolving and fading of the flesh. Other colonies would be happy and open with all their polyps out, except for where it was STN'ing.

Just wanted to mention it might not hurt to double-check all your numbers. Maybe have another hobbiest run tests on your water to confirm your readings.

The low phosphate and nitrate readings along with the appearance of algae suggests to me that you should slowly ramp your GFO back up because your low readings, as many of suggested already, are due to the uptake by the algae/cyano/dinos. The levels aren't increasing because the algae/cyano/dinos are uptaking it.

Hello Tybota,

Thanks for your suggestions. That is exactly how I would describe what is going on: not a rapid STN or RTN, just a slow daily recession of tissue, with some SPS looking just fine. You know, its funny that you mention salinity. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at my salinity reading after checking with my refractometer, and had the thought that this one little piece of equipment could be defective, and it could bring the entire tank down....That has always bothered me. I actually picked up a Milwaukee Digital Refractometer about a year ago, if for no other reason just to have another device to compare with, but once I realized that it had a +/- of 0.002 I sent it back (I would get 1.025 one time, then 1.027 two minutes later, etc). From what I could tell, the VeeGee refractometer was one of the most highly recommended devices so I went with that. However, I still have this nagging feeling every time I test...
When I did start getting a low reading I did use distilled water (as recommended by the manufacturer) to "zero" out the refractometer, and then used Sybon calibration fluid to make sure that it read 35 ppt, as it was supposed to. Still, I would think that there would be something out there that would be more reliable? I know that a lot of the Zeovit guys use the old school glass hydrometers, and swear by them. Did you end up buying a digital meter? I'm wondering if something like the Pinpoint salinity meter would work? I would still use the refractometer, but would like something to double check it against that I knew to be reliable.
Honestly, I can't tell you how happy it would make me if all of these problems were at least partially the result of my salinity just being way off.
Thanks for taking the time to offer up your experience, I will definitely research this some more.

Rocky

 

[FarmerTy]

Well, looks like you got it covered on the salinity path. I was just thinking that might have been the holy grail in your search as it took me months of retesting everything before I thought of the one thing I didn't double check was my salinity. And lo' and behold, that's what it was. Wouldn't be a bad idea to at least get all your numbers verified with somebody else's test kits just to see.

Another experience I can share was while I was eliminating one thing after another to see if any were the root cause of my SPS distress, I pulled my GFO and my biopellets and wanted to go all natural until I could figure out what was wrong. By the time I found out it was the salinity, I had already restarted my GFO as my phosphate was starting to creep back up. What I didn't realize was how quickly my system processed ammonia and nitrite into nitrate and in a span of 2 weeks with my biopellets off, my tank had soared to 50 ppm. A lot of that is to blame on my excessive feeding and large fish population too! So my SPS got another hit from high nitrates to combine with the high salinity. I'm in super recovery mode now, but the way I look at it is, at least I get an excuse to start collecting the primo SPS now and do away with anything that ends with birdsnest or digitata.

I'm a big proponent of feed more/export even more than that! That's how the natural reefs work!

 

[rocknut]

Well, looks like you got it covered on the salinity path. I was just thinking that might have been the holy grail in your search as it took me months of retesting everything before I thought of the one thing I didn't double check was my salinity. And lo' and behold, that's what it was. Wouldn't be a bad idea to at least get all your numbers verified with somebody else's test kits just to see.

Another experience I can share was while I was eliminating one thing after another to see if any were the root cause of my SPS distress, I pulled my GFO and my biopellets and wanted to go all natural until I could figure out what was wrong. By the time I found out it was the salinity, I had already restarted my GFO as my phosphate was starting to creep back up. What I didn't realize was how quickly my system processed ammonia and nitrite into nitrate and in a span of 2 weeks with my biopellets off, my tank had soared to 50 ppm. A lot of that is to blame on my excessive feeding and large fish population too! So my SPS got another hit from high nitrates to combine with the high salinity. I'm in super recovery mode now, but the way I look at it is, at least I get an excuse to start collecting the primo SPS now and do away with anything that ends with birdsnest or digitata.

I'm a big proponent of feed more/export even more than that! That's how the natural reefs work!

Well, because I just can't let it rest, I went ahead and ordered a Pinpoint Salinity Monitor...:doh: I figure I have two test kits for everything else (alk, calcium, magnesium, PO4) probably should have a good way to double check my salinity as well. I'll report back when I get it.

 

[ssdawood]

I am having similar problem like your just not as bad. As far as I can remember if happened after I started dosing prodibio. Stop dosing prodibio, atleast thats what I am doing. I am having problem with my slimer like yours.

 

[rocknut]

okay, so got my Pinpoint Salinity Meter in the mail today and according to this, my salinity is a little low, but probably not anything to worry about:



This reading of 51.3 calculates to 33.7 ppt, and 1.025.

Was kind of hoping to find a smoking gun here, but nothing too bad.


I noticed a layer of clear "slime" film coating in the skimmer compartment of sump. You can definitely feel it between your fingers. Does anyone else have this?









This film is slimy to the touch, and is filled with bubbles. Strange thing is the film is only in the skimmer chamber, which is the fasted moving chamber in the sump as I have a Tunze stream running to keep detritus moving around and to the skimmer. This is the compartment that the biopellet reactor empties into, so maybe the film is from that? I have the outlet of the biopellet reactor ending about 2 inches from the skimmer pump, but maybe that isn't close enough?

Again, just trying to make sure I'm not missing something basic here
Thanks!

Rocky

 

[rocknut]

Wanted to get another opinion on this:



This is the bottom of my salt water mixing container. I contacted ESV (I use their b-ionic salt), and they said it was nothing to worry about, and was most likely the result of the ingredients precipitating in the container. Either way, I did dump some white vinegar and tap water in overnight, then flushed most of it out the next day. Flushed with RO/DI several times until I was at zero TDS again.

I also treated with Chemiclean today. The SPS continue to look worse each day, and the strings of algae just irritate the remaining healthy tissue, so I figured it was worth a shot.