Starfish ID (species level please)

[livinlifeinBKK]

It says that they "benefit from ingesting small organisms". Cows eat insects accidentally while grazing, but if I feed a cow only grass, no insects, the cow is fine. So, the cow is an herbivore. If I were to feed one of these starfish only algae, no small organisms, would its health suffer as a result? If so, it's an omnivore. If not, it's either an adaptable omnivore or a herbivore.

Since one of her primary sources says that they feed on microbial/microalgae feeder...im just pointing out that all the sources make a point of stating meiofauna is a part of their diet. I do personally believe that microorganisms are probably an essential part of their diet.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

They aren’t though is what I’m telling you it’s completely false that they omnivores/carnivores or opportunistic feeders.

And how can you say that they aren't opportunistic feeders? If they readily feed on other unnatural foods in the aquarium I highly doubt they would never show opportunistic feeding behavior in nature.

 

[AydenLincoln]

And how can you say that they aren't opportunistic feeders? If they readily feed on other unnatural foods in the aquarium I highly doubt they would never show opportunistic feeding behavior in nature.

This also isn’t what I think or believe this is what the world’s leading echinoderm/starfish expert explained very well to me in his own words. Is that they are hungry and desperate or can’t find their natural diet and that’s why they show this behavior but that he has observed multiples times them feeding on algae and other plant food and not on meaty/animal foods in the wild. And can something like meaty clams sustain them in captivity absolutely that doesn’t mean it’s their natural diet.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I think there’s a slight misunderstanding here - yes they are herbivores in the sense that they primarily eat herbivorous matter, I’m not disagreeing there.

I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that they (like herbivorous fish) do still ingest other creatures (meiofauna, in this case). This is why I said they are technically omnivores - for aquarium (and marine biologist) purposes, however, they are herbivores because they likely only need algae/biofilm. They eat and benefit from some meat, but they only really need algae.

That said, I would assume the distinction in this case is somewhat vague between omnivore and herbivore from a technical standpoint, as I assume the difference would be whether or not the consumption of the meiofauna is intentional or coincidental. To my knowledge, if intentional, it would definitely be an omnivore (technically), if not, it would be an herbivore. To build off of Tired’s example above, a cow does eat insects while grazing, but it’s not intentional, so it’s an herbivore. If cows went out of their ways to eat insects, we might still consider them herbivores (depending on how many insects they chose to eat vs how much grass), but we might also consider them omnivores at that point. So, again, the line would be a bit vague and subjective.

That said, technically speaking, there are incredibly few truly (technically) herbivorous species in the ocean. In this case (as I basically stated above) Chocolate Chip Starfish could be considered (and likely rightfully) both an herbivore and an omnivore. Again, which one is more correct likely depends on whether or not the star intentionally seeks out meiofauna to consume.

Personally, I took the technical biological perspective and called it an omnivore, but I see your point AydenLincoln and agree that it might be able to be considered an herbivore.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

This also isn’t what I think or believe this is what the world’s leading echinoderm/starfish expert explained very well to me in his own words. Is that they are hungry and desperate or can’t find their natural diet and that’s why they show this behavior but that he has observed multiples times them feeding on algae and other plant food and not on meaty/animal foods. And can something like meaty clams sustain them in captivity absolutely that doesn’t mean it’s their natural diet.

So in your own words sometimes they do show the behavior of opportunistic feeders depending on circumstance in the wild?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I think there’s a slight misunderstanding here - yes they are herbivores in the sense that they primarily eat herbivorous matter, I’m not disagreeing there.

I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that they (like herbivorous fish) do still ingest other creatures (meiofauna, in this case). This is why I said they are technically omnivores - for aquarium (and marine biologist) purposes, however, they are herbivores because they likely only need algae/biofilm. They eat and benefit from some meat, but they only really need algae.

That said, I would assume the distinction in this case is somewhat vague between omnivore and herbivore from a technical standpoint, as I assume the difference would be whether or not the consumption of the meiofauna is intentional or coincidental. To my knowledge, if intentional, it would definitely be an omnivore (technically), if not, it would be an herbivore. To build off of Tired’s example above, a cow does eat insects while grazing, but it’s not intentional, so it’s an herbivore. If cows went out of their ways to eat insects, we might still consider them herbivores (depending on how many insects they chose to eat vs how much grass), but we might also consider omnivores at that point. So, again, the line would be a bit vague and subjective.

That said, technically speaking, there are incredibly few truly (technically) herbivorous species in the ocean. In this case (as I basically stated above) Chocolate Chip Starfish could be considered (and likely rightfully) both an herbivore and an omnivore. Again, which one is more correct likely depends on whether or not the star intentionally seeks out meiofauna to consume.

Personally, I took the technical biological perspective and called it an omnivore, but I see your point AydenLincoln and agree that it might be able to be considered an herbivore.

What about showing opportunistic feeding behavior?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

What about showing opportunistic feeding behavior?

I’m not sure, honestly. I would be shocked if it never happened in nature, but I would also assume it would happen far, far less frequently in the wild than in our aquariums - as mentioned, in the wild, they would have access (theoretically) to all the proper food they could need, so they likely wouldn’t be hungry for most other options. I would imagine the food would need to be highly palatable (nutrition aside) for them to go for it in the wild under good circumstances. In our tanks, however, where their preferred food is likely either scarce or absent, it would likely be much easier to entice them to eat other foods.

So, I’m not sure if they would regularly exhibit opportunistic feeding behaviors in the wild or not. I imagine they do occasionally, but it is likely a relatively (or very) rare occurrence.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I’m not sure, honestly. I would be shocked if it never happened in nature, but I would also assume it would happen far, far less frequently in the wild than in our aquariums - as mentioned, in the wild, they would have access (theoretically) to all the proper food they could need, so they likely wouldn’t be hungry for most other options. I would imagine the food would need to be highly palatable (nutrition aside) for them to go for it in the wild under good circumstances. In our tanks, however, where their preferred food is likely either scarce or absent, it would likely be much easier to entice them to eat other foods.

So, I’m not sure if they would regularly exhibit opportunistic feeding behaviors in the wild or not. I imagine they do occasionally, but it is likely a relatively (or very) rare occurrence.

I doubt it happens regularly in their natural environment under normal circumstances either but I definitely wouldn't state that's it's a 100% false claim. I don't think anyone could say that about an animal with the level of study performed on starfish.

 

[AydenLincoln]

So in your own words sometimes they do show the behavior of opportunistic feeders depending on circumstance in the wild?

That was in regards to in captivity. In the wild he has only observed them eating algae and plant materials. His thoughts were if chocolate chip starfish can’t find their natural diets they become opportunistic feeders in captivity or eat anything they can or are fed that may sustain them. This goes for every starfish too…but some just won’t eat/accept anything and starve very easily in captivity. I.E. linckia and sand sifting starfish.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

That was in regards to in captivity. In the wild he has only observed them eating algae and plant materials. His thoughts were if chocolate chip starfish can’t find their natural diets they become opportunistic feeders in captivity or eat anything they can or are fed that may sustain them. This goes for every starfish too…but some just won’t eat anything and starve very easily. I.E. linckia.

I just think you've made a few really bold claims here about a group of animals not well studied which even the literature you provided doesn't 100% support.
In regards to this specific post I'm replying to, you simply cannot group together "every starfish" into the same category. I see you then added that Linckia will not eat any other foods which is not true. They will also try to eat other foods and again, you shouldn't even group all Linckia together when feeding is concerned.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

I disagree. They don't starve. They melt. They die.
Stars are very touchy with water parameters. Even temp and alk Flux really does them in. ":/

Why I recommend pencil urchins and stars from the fromia sp. Rather than the linkias. They just seem to be more hardy.
D

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I think there’s a slight misunderstanding here - yes they are herbivores in the sense that they primarily eat herbivorous matter, I’m not disagreeing there.

I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that they (like herbivorous fish) do still ingest other creatures (meiofauna, in this case). This is why I said they are technically omnivores - for aquarium (and marine biologist) purposes, however, they are herbivores because they likely only need algae/biofilm. They eat and benefit from some meat, but they only really need algae.

That said, I would assume the distinction in this case is somewhat vague between omnivore and herbivore from a technical standpoint, as I assume the difference would be whether or not the consumption of the meiofauna is intentional or coincidental. To my knowledge, if intentional, it would definitely be an omnivore (technically), if not, it would be an herbivore. To build off of Tired’s example above, a cow does eat insects while grazing, but it’s not intentional, so it’s an herbivore. If cows went out of their ways to eat insects, we might still consider them herbivores (depending on how many insects they chose to eat vs how much grass), but we might also consider them omnivores at that point. So, again, the line would be a bit vague and subjective.

That said, technically speaking, there are incredibly few truly (technically) herbivorous species in the ocean. In this case (as I basically stated above) Chocolate Chip Starfish could be considered (and likely rightfully) both an herbivore and an omnivore. Again, which one is more correct likely depends on whether or not the star intentionally seeks out meiofauna to consume.

Personally, I took the technical biological perspective and called it an omnivore, but I see your point AydenLincoln and agree that it might be able to be considered an herbivore.

To hopefully clarify this post a little further (forgive me, it’s late here and I’m tired, so I’m probably not being as clear as I would hope.):
Technically, it eats meat and algae, so it can technically be considered an omnivore. Such terms are relatively subjective, though (as I discussed with my take on Tired’s cow and insects analogy), and it might be argued (dependent on amount of meat vs algae consumed and whether the meat is consumed intentionally or not) that the organism is an herbivore. From my admittedly limited understanding, these stars primarily consume algae (as I understand it, they technically only need algae to survive, though they are confirmedly known to benefit from the meat they eat), so they can be considered herbivores. If they need the meat to survive, or if the meat makes up a major portion of their diet, or if they intentionally seek out the meat whenever they can find it, however, they would be considered omnivores (as I understand it - I know that third one is a bit of a murky area with this topic, but I view it as a legitimate reason for classification one way or the other on the subject).

Again, though, in marine biology specifically (and sometimes in other fields of biology too), the term herbivore is used somewhat loosely and the term omnivore is used somewhat restrictedly. Tangs, for example, are technically omnivores (as they do eat at least some meat intentionally in the wild), but they are considered to be herbivores. The same might be said for Chocolate Chip Starfish - whether or not herbivore is the more accurate term over omnivore in this case is up for debate based on the factors discussed above though.

 

[AydenLincoln]

I just think you've made a few really bold claims here about a group of animals not well studied which even the literature you provided doesn't 100% support.
In regards to this specific post I'm replying to, you simply cannot group together "every starfish" into the same category. I see you then added that Linckia will not eat any other foods which is not true. They will also try to eat other foods and again, you shouldn't even group all Linckia together when feeding is concerned.

If you google starfish starving in captivity there’s so many articles about it! Is it due to the owner yes but it does happen A LOT. And not every one will accept food. I’ve heard so many stories of starfish not accepting food.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

If you google starfish starving in captivity there’s so many articles about it! Is it due to the owner yes but it does happen A LOT.

Whatever the cause may be, I think it's worth a little more investigating than just a Google search... regardless, you still can't group all species of starfish together into one category...you can't even group Linckias into one feeding category. I think you've just been misled by the Google searches that wrongly make generalizations about ALL starfish or ALL Linckias.

 

[AydenLincoln]

Whatever the cause may be, I think it's worth a little more investigating than just a Google search... regardless, you still can't group all species of starfish together into one category...you can't even group Linckias into one feeding category. I think you've just been misled by the Google searches that wrongly make generalizations about ALL starfish or ALL Linckias.

I’m going to disagree there and this was more than just google. I talked to various people who have kept them and marine biologists. But moving on.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I’m going to disagree there and this was more then just google. I talked to various people who have kept them and biologists. But moving on.

Hokey dokey...I'm not gonna explain why you can't group 2,000 species of animals which live all over the world into one group, nor that Linckias just don't share the same diet.

 

[AydenLincoln]

Hokey dokey...I'm not gonna explain why you can't group 2,000 species of animals which live all over the world into one group, nor that Linckias just don't share the same diet.

That literally is how it works though from a scientific/taxonomist perspective. Look at insects and multiple other animals. It’s just how it is…while yes some are very different they are still in the same species category and that’s not going to change anytime soon.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

That literally is how it works though from a scientific/taxonomist perspective. Look at insects and multiple other animals. It’s just how it is…while yes some are very different they are still in the same species category.

I think you're confused...I'll quote your post

That was in regards to in captivity. In the wild he has only observed them eating algae and plant materials. His thoughts were if chocolate chip starfish can’t find their natural diets they become opportunistic feeders in captivity or eat anything they can or are fed that may sustain them. This goes for every starfish too…but some just won’t eat/accept anything and starve very easily in captivity. I.E. linckia and sand sifting starfish.

You made the generalization "this goes for every starfish too". Simply nobody knows that about every starfish in the world...
Then you contradict yourself by saying that Linckia will not eat/accept anything. Not all Linckia have the same diet so you can't say that. It's spreading false information.

 

[AydenLincoln]

I think you're confused...I'll quote your post

You made the generalization "this goes for every starfish too". Simply nobody knows that about every starfish in the world...
Then you contradict yourself by saying that Linckia will not eat/accept anything. Not all Linckia have the same diet so you can't say that. It's spreading false information.

You’re taking my post way too serious/literal I think.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

You’re taking my post way too seriously I think.

Well I am spending way more time trying to explain your error to you than I should...you don't think it's important to avoid false information on a major forum like R2R? I just think you made a mistake and was pointing it out but you continued to deny the mistake so I tried to keep explaining.