40B Knasty
Valuable Member
My 40B yellow&purple wrasse, grammica lined dartfish, swissguard basslet, clown, Randall's Prawn goby, spotted mandarin.
Stocking suggestions
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eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
I would advise against any tang in that size tank, even a tomini or kole. If fish are not reaching their normal sizes in a normal period of time or if they are not growing, something is stunting their growth. Don't stunt their growth. They may be living, but they aren't thriving, and are certainly not happy if their growth is stunted.
singleshot
Active Member
Flame fin tang(aka Bristletooth Tomini) is your only option. Max size 6" and is actually one of the most peaceful tangs. I think the 2nd pic is when they mature. If you take care of your water and don't over stock or try to max it out. This may be your answer. I have been thinking about getting one for my 40B.
I saw this fish at a LFS for the first time yesterday and I loved it very pretty
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
Yeah they are nice. I look at people's idea of a tank like this. What is the chance of them going out and getting a tang without the right size tank. They are going to do it! So give them at least the best option. Every fish is stunted in our tanks. I have never seen an Emperor, Queen, or French Angel like I did in the New England Aquarium. Unless you have a 2000g tank. No one should have them if we are going to worry about that. They were like 2 1/2 feet at the NEA. Huge and beautiful! Like my wrasse LOVES to swim. He needs a tank 12 feet long easy. He is happy and growing fast. Already lost his 4 spots and got his war paint on his face.
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
I disagree. I have seen plenty of fish reach there full size in captivity. Wrasses almost always get as big as wild caught specimens, if not larger. Anthias, blennies, gobies, and cardinals all have no trouble outgrowing their wild counter parts in captivity. I've also seen many tangs and angels do the same in adequately sizef and planned tanks, and they don't need to be in 1000+g tanks either.
If they are not reaching their full size in captivity something is stunting their growth. Most often it isn't even directly related to tank size, but rather side affects of too small of a tank. Not being able to escape aggressize tankmates, build up of hormones or other organics, inferior water-quality from overstocking or over feeding, increased concentration of disease and parasites, general instability. Any one of these singly or any combination of these can have a negative impact on proper growth, thus stunting the fish. One of the easiest ways to prevent this is by not putting a fish in an inappropriately sized tank.
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
I was using 2000g as a guaranty to be fine example. If we cared about the fish that much. We would leave it where it is. Regardless if a fish gets bigger or smaller. There is probably 1 to every 1,000 Angels sold into the right tank. The point is people are going to buy them. For example you say that you have seen plenty. Do you scuba dive and have seen a full grown Angel, tang, goby, wrasse, Anthies, blenny, and Cardinal to compare with captive ones?
tgfitz1
Active Member
Personally I really disagree with this statement. As hobbyists, the majority of us will make great effort and spend a lot of money on equipment, food, etc. giving the fish we keep the best living conditions possible which obviously shows great care for these fish. When given these conditions, a fish in captivity can have the same or even a greater lifespan than in the wild. Unhappy fish will let you know and will most likely perish. I think that the 1 to 1,000 sold conscientiously for the correct sized tank is way off IMO. Just because people can something it doesn't mean that they will! Ok yes, not everyone will care whether they have the right tank but they usually end up overstocking and crashing their tanks somewhere down the line. But even this is a minority of people. Most people take great care in the wellbeing of their sea animals, I'm sure that includes yourself.
You don't need to go Scuba diving to be able to compare wild and captive specimens, there is endless information online for most of the species kept in aquaria and the sizes they can reach in the wild.
Of course this is just my opinion!
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
That's not true. Life in the wild is quite difficult for wild fish. Everything that is capable of eating thiese fish is trying to do just that. Social fish are constantly vying for the best spots in the group and the losers are put in a much likelier position to be eaten. Also, feeding opportunities can be very inconsistent in the wild.
These factors can be compensated for in aquaria. Under the proper care it is not uncommon for captive fish to live longer lives than wild counterparts.
I don't think the numbers are quite that high, but people with inadequate setups do make these purchases, but more out of ignorance than willful poor husbandry.
I don't scuba but I do snorkel and have seen quite a few in person. But there areplenty of dive guides and scientific literature from which to compare sizes.
Brandonsegula
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Add the tang last. If you add him before he may pick on the new comers if they are close in size
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
Then I disagree with this being the reason since WE ARE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE POST ANYMORE. I can't see how being captured, poked in the swim bladder, probably get an infection, improperly collected, shipped in a bag halfway across the world with no real climate control, arrive at there destination, get acclimated, then taken out to be moved again, acclimated again, then stuffed in a 10 gallon tank to be sold at a LFS with 5 other fish most likely carrying flukes ick or velvet, then acclimated again when bought, and hopefully by someone that knows what they are doing with water, aqua scape, filtration, electricity staying on all the time and feed for survival vs leaving where it is in the ocean. Big fish. Hide. Smaller fish eat. We that know the industry. Know it is not a better thing to do to pull any fish. I have 1 guy that I would TRUST. Out 7 states of LFS shopping.
If a fish gets eaten. That is the cycle of life. When we take bigger fish's food away. That damages their life. So between all the moving of the little fish to maybe make it to a home and taking away the food of the bigger fish. All the money you put into the care of a fish has nothing on what it went through to get to us as a consumers or damaging a fish of a bigger size that needs them for food to survive in the wild. So like I said. If we cared about the fish. We would just leave it there. Just like this whole conversation. Stick to the question at hand asked.
If a fish gets eaten. That is the cycle of life. When we take bigger fish's food away. That damages their life. So between all the moving of the little fish to maybe make it to a home and taking away the food of the bigger fish. All the money you put into the care of a fish has nothing on what it went through to get to us as a consumers or damaging a fish of a bigger size that needs them for food to survive in the wild. So like I said. If we cared about the fish. We would just leave it there. Just like this whole conversation. Stick to the question at hand asked.
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
Not true for the exceedingly vast amount of fish. That would only happen for deep-water fish and many deep-water collectors bring the fish up on a controlled ascent over the course of a few days.
There are some locales that do a poor job of this, but many that are well regulated and sustainable. And the responsible ones are replacing those that aren't.
And yet unless there is some shipping hold up they arrive with pretty consistent temperature.
If done properly, no issue to the fish.
Not necessarily, especially if it happens to be an LFS that knows what they are doing. Not all do, but under proper care most of these are easily remedied.
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
If you say the "vast majority." That means it happens, correct? So don't say it is not true, because if it happens to only just one fish ever pulled. Then it is true. We both know out of the vast majority it does happen. So yes eatbreakfast it is TRUE. You just said it is.
I missed also to say that they also gather fish by paralyzing it. Which they can do with the shallow water fish.
Or when they collect corals. They throw them in a canoe as they collect more and let it sit in the sun for 6hrs.
He said he had a 58g. I have the 40g.
Listen.. Stop picking what I say a part, because you don't have a say in what goes on in another country and how they do things. Fact. I will say it again. STICK TO THE QUESTION.
You are from CT. You do realize an Emperor Angel is collected literally on the other side of the Earth almost and you are going to sit there and tell me that this fish is not going through shock, temp changes, stress, malnutrition, and you know 100% what goes on over there. Come on man. Let's be real. I have been to every LFS in New England except for a few in the Portland ME area. Fish are not kept well in LFS. Especially Petco and Petsmart.
I missed also to say that they also gather fish by paralyzing it. Which they can do with the shallow water fish.
Or when they collect corals. They throw them in a canoe as they collect more and let it sit in the sun for 6hrs.
He said he had a 58g. I have the 40g.
Listen.. Stop picking what I say a part, because you don't have a say in what goes on in another country and how they do things. Fact. I will say it again. STICK TO THE QUESTION.
You are from CT. You do realize an Emperor Angel is collected literally on the other side of the Earth almost and you are going to sit there and tell me that this fish is not going through shock, temp changes, stress, malnutrition, and you know 100% what goes on over there. Come on man. Let's be real. I have been to every LFS in New England except for a few in the Portland ME area. Fish are not kept well in LFS. Especially Petco and Petsmart.
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
Yes, there are bad players in the industry, but to make it seem that it is the norm for the industry is patently false. There are unscrupulous people in all industries. But that doesn't represent the industry on the whole.
Yes, in some areas there is cyanide collection, but there are many areas that don't do that, and areas that do are decreasing.
The vast majority of cotals are either aquacultured or maricultured.
Fish are stressed, but are by no means in shock during transport. The temperature stays consistent, unless there are shipping issues. And a day or 2 of not feeding can actually be part of their normal life cycle. Fish won't be feeding during a tropical storm for example.
The op being a 58g still doesn't make housing a tank responsible husbandry.
So by stating the poor state of responsibility you seem to think the hobby is then that justifies treating livestock as a disposeable commodity? Regardless of the care an animal recieved prior to it's arrival of our care, we should still strive to provide the best home possible. In some cases this requires the responsibility and restraint to recognize when we can't adequately provide for it's needs.
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
Trust me I do all the research I can. I have made one mistake. 2% of my lid was not a tight fit and lost a Randall's Prawn Goby. I beat myself up for that.
We are all here to ask questions and we are all here to answer them as best as possible.
We also know about the tang police.
I could go up and down this north east coast and find only one person to say don't buy that fish. Doesn't matter what fish it is. Then yes. 1/30 surely tells me that the sellers make it a disposable commodity. They will sell anything to keep their doors open. I go into places and with what you think is a good LFS. pull the customer aside and say put that pack. Don't buy this and that. Then they go back to the person selling and i see them walking out the door with I just told them not to do. Workers have no experience. The store owners don't care about anything but overhead and selling. That is business. I was talking to marine biologist at a LFS and she was using tap water with no prime in a saltwater tank with a cow fish new to the store and she brought it home. Guess what. I got a message tank crash. Well yeah.. You put a cow fish in bad water, with high flow, and large predator fish. The LFS didn't care where the fish was going, They just seen great. This person doesn't know. Tank crash and guess who is coming back to buy more. Not me
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
^So with all that mind. It is more likely a tang will have a healthier life in a tank larger than 58g.
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
Don't be the inexperienced employee that says a tang will be a good choice for a 58g.
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
I don't know. Never had one. I answered the question with what the best bet was. I don't have my badge for the tang police. I just know people do what they do.
All I know is I had 6 fish in a 20g. No problems at all. Soon as they went to a 40B with nothing changed. I might have a wrasse with flukes now. Probably from the LR or live sand if that is possible. People thought I was crazy for having that much. I know what my fish like and their characteristics. So by studying them. I believe you can get a common sense judgment call and make it work. Personally I talked to people with great experience. If a 50% chance of flukes and ick. Yeah that is not a risk I want to take and shows also the fish are not cared for when they are captured, transported, fed, sold in a stressful environment, enough rest time going through acclamations, and put in a tank with 50% chance of ick or flukes from another fish. When there is 6 other fish in the tank turning that 50% to 300%. Just so the LFS doesn't have to spend money to treat them and would rather sell a sick fish so they can come back and buy a product. That is what is in my mind.
All I know is I had 6 fish in a 20g. No problems at all. Soon as they went to a 40B with nothing changed. I might have a wrasse with flukes now. Probably from the LR or live sand if that is possible. People thought I was crazy for having that much. I know what my fish like and their characteristics. So by studying them. I believe you can get a common sense judgment call and make it work. Personally I talked to people with great experience. If a 50% chance of flukes and ick. Yeah that is not a risk I want to take and shows also the fish are not cared for when they are captured, transported, fed, sold in a stressful environment, enough rest time going through acclamations, and put in a tank with 50% chance of ick or flukes from another fish. When there is 6 other fish in the tank turning that 50% to 300%. Just so the LFS doesn't have to spend money to treat them and would rather sell a sick fish so they can come back and buy a product. That is what is in my mind.
I'd rather have three Resplendent Anthias than another wrasse. I won't be able to feed them three times a day and would be concerned that nitrates would go up significantly if I did.
Once you get that hogfish in you will never get him out. I had one took days and ripping apart my tank to get him out. Then found him hiding in the rock I removed. I thought he was killing my other fish. Now not so sure.
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
Consider using the same amount of food and spreading it out over more feedings. The fish will more efficiently use it and less will go to waste and subsequently pollute the tank.
