Stringy white clownfish poop

[Paul Sands]

That was directed at me, and I have no issue with it. I understand Lasse and what he meant by it. It's Swedish humor, but it was humor. Does he feel his way and recommendations are correct? Absolutely. Do Hotrocks and 4Ford? Absolutely. Not sure why that is a surprise.


When you become the majority of the scientific community I will consider that statement valid. Until then, I'd like to see something from the scientific community backing your position.

So far you have only misrepresented FDA guidance about food production to back up your claims and didn’t seem to even understand that what you were citing was actually about food production. It seems like you have selective reading skills, so I don’t have any urge to do anything other than refute your false Claims.

I am curious about the OP and whether any of this is helpful to him. Not sure if he has a reef tank with a sick fish or raising 14,000 chickens that he wants to pump full of antibiotics.

 

[Brew12]

So far you have only misrepresented FDA guidance about food production to back up your claims and didn’t seem to even understand that what you were citing was actually about food production. It seems like you have selective reading skills, so I don’t have any urge to do anything other than refute your false Claims.

I and curious about the OP and whether any of this is helpful to him. Not sure if he has a reef tank with a sick fish or raising 14,000 chickens that he wants to pump full of antibiotics.

So I'll ask again... why would antibiotics used by hobbyists magically act differently than antibiotics used in food production. You can't answer that provide proof against it because it doesn't exist. You only refuse to accept it or are purposefully acting ignorant.

I also posted a large amount of information from Canada which you have chosen to ignore since you can't refute it as it covers hobbyist fish medications.

So again, I'll ask you. Where is your scientific support for your stance. You have provided none because it doesn't exist.

At this point, anyone reading this will have made up their minds on our stances. I won't waste any more time with your nonsense since you can't back it up and we both know it.

 

[EmdeReef]

Aquatic veterinary science is severely lacking, I think we can hopefully all agree to that. One just needs to look up veterinary schools...

I recently talked to my dog’s vet who graduated from UPenn and she told that there was no such concentration and basically only a handful of mostly theoretical classes, she’s in her 40s...

I live in NYC, vets are virtually on every corner, good luck finding one that knows anything about aquatic animals, maybe a few can give shots to koi fish.

In the ideal world, yes we’d go to a vet and they’d run tests and we’d get those tests in time and get a prescription filled. You’d still have to catch your fish and transport it to wherever, so the whole “minimizing stress” argument goes out the window. The problem is that for many illnesses we deal with, the recommended diagnostic procedure is to kill the fish and perform a necropsy - borrowed from fish farms where that is ok 1/1000-0.

Re chemicals etc - Given our track record on chemical safety for people in the US, the probability of someone even thinking of regulating fish medications is virtually non-existent. You can still legally buy 37% formaldehyde and not to mention what other compounds you can get on eBay or other sites so let’s not put the cart before the horse.

I’ve handled my share of fish including on fish farms and I’ve observed that very few fish recover after they stop eating, and if they’re not eating for a prolonged period of time then even fewer recover - IME almost none. The choice is simple - you see white stringy poop and treat while the fish is still eating, or according to some article you wait until it stops eating to be sure it may be a parasite and then treat... in reality, we don’t know how often white stringy poop is a parasite vs. white stringy poop + not eating, there’s never been a meta study lol

Thus if we are very honest in neither case we know without running a test, which 99.9% of us can’t do. In the end you may still treat for parasites when a fish doesn’t have them and treating a tank instead of binding an antibiotic to fish food would be considered far worse from the antibiotic resistance perspective.

 

[bluprntguy]

For the record, I haven't given any advice to the OP.

Correct. You just came on to promote your agenda (which you yourself don’t follow) and to trash the OP’s thread in the process.

So I'll ask again... why would antibiotics used by hobbyists magically act differently than antibiotics used in food production.

It’s been answered numerous times before, you just refuse to acknowledge that there’s a difference between one person treating a fish with observable symptoms and thousands of commercial food facilities pumping antibiotics into hundreds of thousands of animals every single day.

Find me a quote where I said EVERYONE in the scientific community thinks this is a "gigantic issue" and needs to be "stopped immediately"?

Yes. I exaggerated. You will notice I didn’t put it in quotes. What you actually said like 3 times is that “The majority of the scientific community’ agrees with you. Of course, you can’t back up that claim either because they don’t.

 

[Lasse]

In the end you may still treat for parasites when a fish doesn’t have them and treating a tank instead of binding an antibiotic to fish food would be considered far worse from the antibiotic resistance perspective

Interesting - beside of this discussion in this thread - to know how you think the mechanisms behind antibiotic resistance work? In my understanding - microorganism will have the opportunity to evolve resistance if the dose or the way it is distributed do not kill every one – just leaving the ones with genetical natural higher resistance still alive for further multiplication (yes I do use multiplication with purpose because many of those microorganisms do not propagate in a sexual manner – they just clone themselves) A method that kill everyone will therefore be a better choice (according to prevent antibiotic resistance among microorganism) compared with a method that you do not know if the fish will eat enough of the prepared food, to much or just exact the therapeutic level . Home prepared medical food (soak in solution of x and y), not knowing the weight of the fish, not knowing how much they eat and not knowing the strength of the dose seems for me like the ideal condition for building antibiotic resistance in a very short time. I have treated fish with prescript medical food, and I know how important it is to know exactly how much to feed and for how long time. The strength of the pre medicated food (and the amount of food) was also adjusted to appetite of the fish.

The only parasitic internal disease there a stringy white poop is one of the indications (read symptoms) scientific described is uncontrolled growth of diplomonad flagellates (hexamita like flagellates). There is the tiny white poop an indication that will show up after the fish have stop eating IME - not before. It is true that fish that have stopped to eat is difficult to recover – however with proper medication it will be possible. With diplomonad flagellate infection and fish that have stopped to eat (and show up the other indications as well) - I have succeeded to treat this infection many times during my FW period (read - cure African Bloat) using metro bath (or one of its derivates).

The argue that this hobby is to small in order to get regulation is not valid IMO. Instead it is the reason why it will be one of the first (it have happens in Europe) because there is not huge economical interest that can lobby against a ban and a ban of that type will show that the authorities at least do something with this problem that all see. Aggressive arguments of non-scientific ways to use these drugs will not help the case either - IMO – instead it will be contra productive.

Me – that´s does not treat when I only see a tiny white stringy poop – knows how often the fish will change the way the poop looks like by themselves. The one that treat as soon as they see this – they do not know if the recovery is caused by the medication or if it had happened even without treatment. Let us put it this way – I have not treat any fish with tiny white stringy poop yet that still have eaten – they have all recover by themselves. Can it happen that some will not recover – for sure – but it has not happens me yet.

Back to the OP - the different sides of this is clearly shown in this thread - now it is your choose how you will take care of your fish and I´m sure that your decision will be right in your situation

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

Where is the science that says metronidazole used by a hobbyist is less likely to cause microbial resistance than metronidazole used on a fish farm or hog farm?

This is silly

Your hypothesis is that it does.

Now you need to show that your hypothesis is correct.

It doesn’t work the other way. You keep asking your critics to prove a negative.

In addition
1) You are talking about a fish in an enclosed system
2) Not eaten by humans
3) Hardly the amounts that can cause antibiotic resistance
4) The microorganisms are not human pathogens

 

[Brew12]

It’s been answered numerous times before, you just refuse to acknowledge that there’s a difference between one person treating a fish with observable symptoms and thousands of commercial food facilities pumping antibiotics into hundreds of thousands of animals every single day.

Ok, which one person is going to be allowed to treat fish with antibiotics in the hobby? Last time I checked there were over 2 million marine aquariums in the US. We aren't talking a single user.

Yes. I exaggerated. You will notice I didn’t put it in quotes. What you actually said like 3 times is that “The majority of the scientific community’ agrees with you. Of course, you can’t back up that claim either because they don’t.

No, you flat out lied and said I made claims I never did. And you can deny science all you want. It's your right. It isn't a fringe group making a push around the world to further restrict access to antibiotics.

 

[Brew12]

This is silly

Your hypothesis is that it does.

Now you need to show that your hypothesis is correct.

My hypothesis is not that it does.
It is silly to think that antibiotics work differently if used in a food animal than it does in a pet. I'd love to know how the antibiotic knows if it is a fish raised for food or as a pet. If someone is going to make that claim they should offer some evidence.

In addition
1) You are talking about a fish in an enclosed system
2) Not eaten by humans
3) Hardly the amounts that can cause antibiotic resistance
4) The microorganisms are not human pathogens

A single misused dose of antibiotics can create an resistance. That is why doctors stress to take the entire regimen when they prescribe antibiotics. The more times it is done the more likely a resistance is to occur but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

We also stop talking about this being an enclosed system or not able to impact human pathogens when we dump the water down a drain. I don't know any hobbyists that take measures to ensure antibiotics are not dumped down a drain somewhere.

 

[bluprntguy]

Ok, which one person is going to be allowed to treat fish with antibiotics in the hobby? Last time I checked there were over 2 million marine aquariums in the US. We aren't talking a single user.

Right now, in this thread we are talking about one person. You are demanding a standard for fish that exists no where else. And you are the only person in this thread making the argument.

There are 9 BILLION chickens being raised for food, 75 million pigs, and 95 million cattle. Many are currently being treated with antibiotics in their water daily before being consumed by humans. No sane person can seriously make the claim that isn’t substantially different than 2 million hobbyists treating a small percentage of their animals when they show symptoms.

 

[Paul Sands]

this practice isn't accepted by the scientific community

My hypothesis

is it a widely accepted fact of the entire scientific community or your personal hypothesis? you presented the argument initially like it was some kind of well accepted fact. then you shame the OP by using words like “dangerous” and “reckless” without anything to back it up except some silly voluntary FDA guidance for chicken McNuggets.

after making those type of arguments for pages, you can’t just add one post telling the OP that it’s all good if he decides to treat his fish and think that makes up for the hit job you took against doing just that...

 

[EmdeReef]

Interesting - beside of this discussion in this thread - to know how you think the mechanisms behind antibiotic resistance work? In my understanding - microorganism will have the opportunity to evolve resistance if the dose or the way it is distributed do not kill every one – just leaving the ones with genetical natural higher resistance still alive for further multiplication (yes I do use multiplication with purpose because many of those microorganisms do not propagate in a sexual manner – they just clone themselves) A method that kill everyone will therefore be a better choice (according to prevent antibiotic resistance among microorganism) compared with a method that you do not know if the fish will eat enough of the prepared food, to much or just exact the therapeutic level . Home prepared medical food (soak in solution of x and y), not knowing the weight of the fish, not knowing how much they eat and not knowing the strength of the dose seems for me like the ideal condition for building antibiotic resistance in a very short time. I have treated fish with prescript medical food, and I know how important it is to know exactly how much to feed and for how long time. The strength of the pre medicated food (and the amount of food) was also adjusted to appetite of the fish.

The only parasitic internal disease there a stringy white poop is one of the indications (read symptoms) scientific described is uncontrolled growth of diplomonad flagellates (hexamita like flagellates). There is the tiny white poop an indication that will show up after the fish have stop eating IME - not before. It is true that fish that have stopped to eat is difficult to recover – however with proper medication it will be possible. With diplomonad flagellate infection and fish that have stopped to eat (and show up the other indications as well) - I have succeeded to treat this infection many times during my FW period (read - cure African Bloat) using metro bath (or one of its derivates).

The argue that this hobby is to small in order to get regulation is not valid IMO. Instead it is the reason why it will be one of the first (it have happens in Europe) because there is not huge economical interest that can lobby against a ban and a ban of that type will show that the authorities at least do something with this problem that all see. Aggressive arguments of non-scientific ways to use these drugs will not help the case either - IMO – instead it will be contra productive.

Me – that´s does not treat when I only see a tiny white stringy poop – knows how often the fish will change the way the poop looks like by themselves. The one that treat as soon as they see this – they do not know if the recovery is caused by the medication or if it had happened even without treatment. Let us put it this way – I have not treat any fish with tiny white stringy poop yet that still have eaten – they have all recover by themselves. Can it happen that some will not recover – for sure – but it has not happens me yet.

Back to the OP - the different sides of this is clearly shown in this thread - now it is your choose how you will take care of your fish and I´m sure that your decision will be right in your situation

Sincerely Lasse

@Lasse - I think we largely agree re.bacterial antibiotic resistance. First and foremost cause, there are some other, is the continuous introduction of sub-therapeutic antibiotic levels into the environment or an organism. The effect is then amplified in overcrowded environments where bacteria in one of the many hosts or the environment is given time to adapt its defensive mechanisms. However, this doesn’t happen overnight or in very short periods, although nothing in nature is 100%. If bacterial resistance developed in 10-14 days modern fish, chicken, cattle etc. farming would not exist...

I do not think that an occasional treatment with antibiotics of our reef fish is a fair comparison. In most cases if properly administered it will be a short term event at or close therapeutic levels - in most instances antibiotics will biodegrade before bacterial resistance can occur. Furthermore, we observe the sick fish and treat slightly past the elimination of symptoms, thus it’s somewhat safe to assume that we did not administer a subtherapeutic dose.

We should also note that it’s highly unlikely for parasites to develop resistance given their physiology.

From an ecological perspective, treating a body of water to achieve the therapeutic dose let’s say 10mg/l and then flushing the untreated water will always be worse than any target treatment. You will rarely, if ever, use as much antibiotics in fish feed as required to treat a corresponding body of water whether fish eats it or not. Even highly advanced water treatment plants have trouble filtering antibiotics which likely come from human urine or people flushing pills and that’s before very common overflows.

The problem with many fish farms (inland in particular) is that antibiotics are indiscriminately both fed and added to the water (depending on the structure), among other reasons, to fatten the fish and not treat any symptoms. This is done continuously for weeks and/or months at subtherapeutic levels with very short breaks in between - intentionally or not. As shocking as it may sound, even 10y ago many commercial fish feeds had low concentrations of antibiotics in their ingredients. I don’t know if that’s been outlawed but can assume it’s still done at least in some countries.

Re.regulations - for my own health I wish you were right, but we simply don’t regulate chemicals in this country. It’s highly likely that people who post here about fears of bacterial resistance regularly treat their lawns with all sorts of chemicals which have been banned in Europe and elsewhere and then drink those chemicals via their well water. You used to be able to buy all sorts of animal medicines OTC, then the veterinary lobby pushed for prescription laws (they were likely motivated by money but it’s a good thing it happened). Our FDA is highly reactive vs. the European watchdogs which tend to apply precautions. Until an interest group like that comes out I think fish medicines will fly under the radar. I would hazard a guess that you couldn’t just buy something like this in Sweden:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Copper-Sul...236117282?epid=2154634388&hash=item3d0e7d9922

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Arsenic-Cr...BMAAOSw1m1dF1CU:sc:USPSFirstClass!10027!US!-1
(Note that he’s got various quantities

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

My hypothesis is not that it does.
It is silly to think that antibiotics work differently if used in a food animal than it does in a pet. I'd love to know how the antibiotic knows if it is a fish raised for food or as a pet. If someone is going to make that claim they should offer some evidence.

They are different for a variety of reasons

First we are not eating them, thus exposing us to the antibiotics. By eating the antibiotic by eating the animal.

Second, for all intents, our fish populations are quarantined from spreading out into a general wild population. If, if your yellow tang develops an infection of antibiotic resistant pathogen. It’s not going to spread that pathogen to the larger yellow tang population. It just won’t(yes I know about lion fish off Florida).

Third, name one fish bacteria pathogen that is a pathogen to humans. Off the top of your head, no Googling. And, and is that bacteria affected by any of our in tank antibiotic interventions.

A single misused dose of antibiotics can create an resistance.

Not really. It takes one cell that develops resistance, to grow, multiply, carrying that gene for resistance, and colonize the host. Irrespective of that hosts immune system. In otherwords, not die by the hosts own immune system. Or by a bactericidal agent, say iodine.

Aside: I wonder if chlorhexidine can be useful in this hobby.


Antibiotic resistant bacteria are the greatest threat to people with compromised immune systems. HIV, AIDs, neutropenic, and people taking organ tissue anti-rejection drugs. Do you know any fish that have these conditions?

The vastest of vast of humans have immune systems that kill most MRDOs.

We care about the effects of resistance because of its effects on HUMANs. Not animals. And care about it only in animals only insofar that it affects humans.

(Ps, I am going to skip cross bacteria species transference and how that works)

I understand that you have a Nature Channel level of understanding of how MRDOs are made and spread. Which is more than most people. But it is not enough knowledge base or experience to be making accurate or precision opinions on the topic.

Get your old bio textbook out and go over the 5 steps of the Scientific Method. What they are, what they do, what their order is.

You have gone straight to step 5, Conclusion; missing all of the other steps.

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

Ok, which one person is going to be allowed to treat fish with antibiotics in the hobby? Last time I checked there were over 2 million marine aquariums in the US. We aren't talking a single user.
.

Let’s play around with this.

Johny has 2 clowns, yellow tang, blue tang.

One of the clowns has an bacterial infection.

Johny treats his tank with metro. Does it poorly. And the pathogen develops resistance.

Pathogen spreads to clown 2, shakes it off. Its immune system kills the MDRO.

Yellow tang dies, the pathogen on the tang dies, MDRO dies.
Blue tang is infected, and fights off the infection. Kills the MDRO.

Clown 1 obviously dies. The MDRO killed it. That MDRO dies now, no host.

Do you not see how hobby fish are completely different than wild or hatchery fish yet?

Or are you just trolling us?

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

The effect is then amplified in overcrowded environments where bacteria in one of the many hosts or the environment is given time to adapt its defensive mechanisms. However, this doesn’t happen overnight or in very short periods, although nothing in nature is 100%. If bacterial resistance developed in 10-14 days modern fish, chicken, cattle etc. farming would not exist...

(Antibiotic resistance developed by the microorganism, the bacteria)

Clarifying, I hope

If there are two strains of Staph A.

#1 Staph A has not one antibiotic resistance.

#2 Staph A has a dozen resistances to Vanco, Cipro, Linezolid, Metro, cefepime, rocephin, tazobactam, pipercillin, any bug juice you can think of

Now, here is where we separate the cream from the curd.

If you are infected by the no resistance Staph A. And your immune system killed it off quickly and successfully.

What happens to you if you become infected with #2 Super Duper Staph Aureus, at the very same time.

Does it turn into flesh eating bacteria necrotizing fasciitis and kill you?

Or nothing at all? Besides a boil you pop, clean with alcohol, and it heals up just like #1 Baby Staph A?

 

[EmdeReef]

(Antibiotic resistance developed by the microorganism, the bacteria)

Clarifying, I hope

If there are two strains of Staph A.

#1 Staph A has not one antibiotic resistance.

#2 Staph A has a dozen resistances to Vanco, Cipro, Linezolid, Metro, cefepime, rocephin, tazobactam, pipercillin, any bug juice you can think of

Now, here is where we separate the cream from the curd.

If you are infected by the no resistance Staph A. And your immune system killed it off quickly and successfully.

What happens to you if you become infected with #2 Super Duper Staph Aureus, at the very same time.

Does it turn into flesh eating bacteria necrotizing fasciitis and kill you?

Or nothing at all? Besides a boil you pop, clean with alcohol, and it heals up just like #1 Baby Staph A?

I gave an example of one possible path of developing antibiotic resistance in farming/closed systems. I don’t follow the logic of your questions below in the context of the quoted paragraph.

 

[Lasse]

I have a single question

If a drug is considered so dangerous to humans that fish grown as food should not be treated with this drug at all, it must be because the drug or its metabolites never disappear from the fish. They are still active or toxic metabolites have been formed. If we ignore the impact on man - is it anyone here who believes that the fish is not affected at all?

Fuerther - this ban - never to be used in food fish - is valid for most of the anti parasitic drugs that are recommended here. Is valid for all lipophilic drugs. Metronidazole is one of them - it is also a traditional antibiotica against anaerobic gut bacteria. A lipophilc taditional antibiotica as Nifurpirinol is also banned of the same reasons. They or metabolites from them is in the fish for ever - the fish have very difficult to get rid of them.

With water soluble antibiotics is a different task. They will leave the fish body after a while - not make longtime damage in the fish and will not be trasfered to us. These drugs is allowed to treat food fish with but have normally a clearing time of 30 minutes.

For the books. There is a zoonose according to fish bacteria. It is Mycobacterium marinum. It is very common in aquarium fish and can be trasfered to man.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

We should also note that it’s highly unlikely for parasites to develop resistance given their physiology.

I do not agree with this. Most of the known fish parasites is known to develop resistance rather quickly - especially those that have a direct life cycle. But even parasites as the Plasmodium´s (the genus for the Malaria parasite) with a complex cycle has been reported to develope resistance against QP (if I remmember right)

Suncerely Lasse

 

[EmdeReef]

I have a single question

If a drug is considered so dangerous to humans that fish grown as food should not be treated with this drug at all, it must be because the drug or its metabolites never disappear from the fish. They are still active or toxic metabolites have been formed. If we ignore the impact on man - is it anyone here who believes that the fish is not affected at all?

Fuerther - this ban - never to be used in food fish - is valid for most of the anti parasitic drugs that are recommended here. Is valid for all lipophilic drugs. Metronidazole is one of them - it is also a traditional antibiotica against anaerobic gut bacteria. A lipophilc taditional antibiotica as Nifurpirinol is also banned of the same reasons. They or metabolites from them is in the fish for ever - the fish have very difficult to get rid of them.

With water soluble antibiotics is a different task. They will leave the fish body after a while - not make longtime damage in the fish and will not be trasfered to us. These drugs is allowed to treat food fish with but have normally a clearing time of 30 minutes.

For the books. There is a zoonose according to fish bacteria. It is Mycobacterium marinum. It is very common in aquarium fish and can be trasfered to man.

Sincerely Lasse

Not all antibiotics are banned in farmed fish, the practice of indiscriminate addition of antibiotics to the feed or water has been restricted although not outright banned in many places. Many antibiotics are still used, in developed countries you need a vet to say it’s fine to use the regulations are very lax and there’s little oversight. Testing is done randomly...

You’re conflating the continuous use of antibiotics on fish farms vs. an occasional treatment... FWIW metro gets metabolized pretty fast. Some of the more recent FAO guidelines for fish farms, suggest discontinuing the use of certain antibiotics 15 days before harvest.

If you are curious about this you can read a few interesting studies on residual bioavailability of antibiotics in fish tissue at different time intervals.

Again, with respect, the comparison is invalid...

 

[EmdeReef]

I do not agree with this. Most of the known fish parasites is known to develop resistance rather quickly - especially those that have a direct life cycle. But even parasites as the Plasmodium´s (the genus for the Malaria parasite) with a complex cycle has been reported to develope resistance against QP (if I remmember right)

Suncerely Lasse

It won’t happen after administering antibiotics for 10-14 days which is what most protocols recommend. Again, theoretically anything is possible but the resistance (fortunately for us) doesn’t occur so easily.

You are right P.vivax has been becoming more resistant to quinine drugs after ~50yrs of use. Unfortunately, in many underdeveloped countries it is difficult to enforce proper treatment protocols. In addition, lacking infrastructure makes environmental applications somewhat useless and thus contributing to the trend.

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

I gave an example of one possible path of developing antibiotic resistance in farming/closed systems. I don’t follow the logic of your questions below in the context of the quoted paragraph.

I was clarifying this complete inaccuracy or misstatement

That’s why I quoted it there

And SS it here

I am trying to be clear