Support LFS or buy online?

[Cherub]

my LFS's are a rip off compared to online. Then they have attitude to top it off. I've been online for a while now

 

[haleyf1024]

Kinda depends on the shop. Most lfs don’t have a guarantee on salt livestock, and do not do full qt as they would need a lot of capital to do so. If we accepted 24-48 guarantees on saltwater fish, stores would be bleeding money due to things out of their control. I do my part and try to fully vet out each customer and their tanks before selling livestock, but many lie or leave important details out.

Does he do anything with his livestock like medicate or feed medicated foods? What regions does he order from? Stores that still order from the Philippines are an issue and their fish aren’t healthy, typically dying in ~1-2 weeks. I keep our system coppered and prazipro new orders, and medicate their food, but I know my livestock is coming from good areas almost directly from the divers, and have no problems selling them the day they arrive or the day after as long as they eat (most do). Obviously fish that come in with lympho or are super stressed get time to rest before sale.

Usually I tell people to not buy livestock from shops that don’t copper their systems or feed medicate foods.

 

[Mattg023]

Kinda depends on the shop. Most lfs don’t have a guarantee on salt livestock, and do not do full qt as they would need a lot of capital to do so. If we accepted 24-48 guarantees on saltwater fish, stores would be bleeding money due to things out of their control. I do my part and try to fully vet out each customer and their tanks before selling livestock, but many lie or leave important details out.

Does he do anything with his livestock like medicate or feed medicated foods? What regions does he order from? Stores that still order from the Philippines are an issue and their fish aren’t healthy, typically dying in ~1-2 weeks. I keep our system coppered and prazipro new orders, and medicate their food, but I know my livestock is coming from good areas almost directly from the divers, and have no problems selling them the day they arrive or the day after as long as they eat (most do). Obviously fish that come in with lympho or are super stressed get time to rest before sale.

Usually I tell people to not buy livestock from shops that don’t copper their systems or feed medicate foods.

I know he runs copper in about half the tanks. Recently he has been getting livestock from all over. When I bought the flame angel last week he had dropped the salinity very low In his system to avoid parasites. He said he was getting fish from all over, and that was the reasoning. I do not think he feeds medicated foods.

 

[Hendrix]

Great Question

My 2 cents:
- I love LFS because I can see the specimen and make an intelligent choice. I hope to always have 2-3 high quality LFS's to choose from. I want to support them but I want them to support me. WYSIWYG is true and I get to see everything around them!

Here is what I look for:
- How do their tanks look?
- Are they well maintained? Clean?
- Have you ever tested their water? Have you asked them to? Do it immediately in the car if you know how to re-close their bag. Keep in mind they typically overstock and overfeed. Hopefully they over filter & over water change.
- How many separate systems are they running?
- If they have a bad tank, are they all exposed to to same system?
- Not all stores have the space to quarantine all fish. It also can raise price substantially (that's ok for me & I would like to see more do it). They should quarantine all visibly sick fish in a separate quarintine tank.
- If they have visibly sick fish in a display tank and are willing to sell you that fish or another from the tank, RUNNN!
- They should check every fish before they put it in a display at a minimum and make a good choice for them and you.
- Do they have a lot of water on hand to do water changes?
- Do they have a quarantine tank?

Consider what you should do: (Unless you quarantine well)
- If you're impatient and buy from a tank that looks suspect - shame on you
- If you buy a fish that doesn't eat - shame on you
- Is it eating what you feed your fish?
- If its eating frozen and you feed pellets, could be an issue. But I go with eating voraciously first
- If you buy a fish that's not active and looking great - shame on you
- If you buy a fish that's scratching or twitching - shame on you
- If your asking or thinking - will that fish be better in my tank - shame on you
- Don't judge a store by an individual, I ask every employee that assists me if they have a tank and have them tell me their experience level. Conversation not interogation. Some employees don't know any better. I try to wait for the knowledgeable employee.

I have one store that I will not buy a fish from most of their systems. They have had fish with issues for 15 years. I just discovered a new LFS that the building looks horrible but their fish & system look good. all of their tanks and fish look pretty good.

Hope is not a good strategy!
Rationalizing to yourself why to buy suspect fish is a sign of trouble.
Patience & non emotional choices are good.

About me:
Worked in the business mid 70's to mid 80's (High School and College), retail and service. I studied Marine Bio with a focuse on Ichthyology in college. I maintained my college's "Wet Lab" (Our collected & inherited fish). I have a really good eye for what's going on in a tank. Coral is harder for me because I'm learning on my nickel over the last 15 years. I learned a ton through my own trial and error and my customers mistakes.

 

[haleyf1024]

I know he runs copper in about half the tanks. Recently he has been getting livestock from all over. When I bought the flame angel last week he had dropped the salinity very low In his system to avoid parasites. He said he was getting fish from all over, and that was the reasoning. I do not think he feeds medicated foods.

There it is. I find that lower salinities are very stressful on new fish. We had much higher mortality rates both in the shop and in customer tanks before I took over. It had been kept at 1.015 but now I keep it at 1.025-6. It’s not fair to the customer- acclimating from a lower salinity to regular salinity is incredibly stressful and should be done over 3-7 days, not a 2-6 hour acclimation. Flames are sensitive, I’m willing to say that was the cause. I know lfs keeping low salinities are dime a dozen, but it really isn’t as good of a practice as running Copperpower and buying from responsible regions. Copper+low salinity is also extremely detrimental to fish

 

[Mattg023]

Great Question

My 2 cents:
- I love LFS because I can see the specimen and make an intelligent choice. I hope to always have 2-3 high quality LFS's to choose from. I want to support them but I want them to support me. WYSIWYG is true and I get to see everything around them!

Here is what I look for:
- How do their tanks look?
- Are they well maintained? Clean?
- Have you ever tested their water? Have you asked them to? Do it immediately in the car if you know how to re-close their bag. Keep in mind they typically overstock and overfeed. Hopefully they over filter & over water change.
- How many separate systems are they running?
- If they have a bad tank, are they all exposed to to same system?
- Not all stores have the space to quarantine all fish. It also can raise price substantially (that's ok for me & I would like to see more do it). They should quarantine all visibly sick fish in a separate quarintine tank.
- If they have visibly sick fish in a display tank and are willing to sell you that fish or another from the tank, RUNNN!
- They should check every fish before they put it in a display at a minimum and make a good choice for them and you.
- Do they have a lot of water on hand to do water changes?
- Do they have a quarantine tank?

Consider what you should do: (Unless you quarantine well)
- If you're impatient and buy from a tank that looks suspect - shame on you
- If you buy a fish that doesn't eat - shame on you
- Is it eating what you feed your fish?
- If its eating frozen and you feed pellets, could be an issue. But I go with eating voraciously first
- If you buy a fish that's not active and looking great - shame on you
- If you buy a fish that's scratching or twitching - shame on you
- If your asking or thinking - will that fish be better in my tank - shame on you
- Don't judge a store by an individual, I ask every employee that assists me if they have a tank and have them tell me their experience level. Conversation not interogation. Some employees don't know any better. I try to wait for the knowledgeable employee.

I have one store that I will not buy a fish from most of their systems. They have had fish with issues for 15 years. I just discovered a new LFS that the building looks horrible but their fish & system look good. all of their tanks and fish look pretty good.

Hope is not a good strategy!
Rationalizing to yourself why to buy suspect fish is a sign of trouble.
Patience & non emotional choices are good.

About me:
Worked in the business mid 70's to mid 80's (High School and College), retail and service. I studied Marine Bio with a focuse on Ichthyology in college. I maintained my college's "Wet Lab" (Our collected & inherited fish). I have a really good eye for what's going on in a tank. Coral is harder for me because I'm learning on my nickel over the last 15 years. I learned a ton through my own trial and error and my customers mistakes.

Great write up. you are spot on.
P.s. fellow marine bio graduate. Awesome. Currently work as a fisheries biologist myself.

There it is. I find that lower salinities are very stressful on new fish. We had much higher mortality rates both in the shop and in customer tanks before I took over. It had been kept at 1.015 but now I keep it at 1.025-6. It’s not fair to the customer- acclimating from a lower salinity to regular salinity is incredibly stressful and should be done over 3-7 days, not a 2-6 hour acclimation. Flames are sensitive, I’m willing to say that was the cause. I know lfs keeping low salinities are dime a dozen, but it really isn’t as good of a practice as running Copperpower and buying from responsible regions. Copper+low salinity is also extremely detrimental to fish

Wow. Thanks for the knowledge... his system was at 1.011.... I keep both our tanks at 1.025

 

[haleyf1024]

Great write up. you are spot on.
P.s. fellow marine bio graduate. Awesome. Currently work as a fisheries biologist myself.


Wow. Thanks for the knowledge... his system was at 1.011.... I keep both our tanks at 1.025

That’s pretty dang low, almost full hypo (1.009) which is the lowest fish can survive in. I’d be willing to bet the issue was salinity

 

[Mattg023]

That’s pretty dang low, almost full hypo (1.009) which is the lowest fish can survive in. I’d be willing to bet the issue was salinity

I’m going in to visit him tomorrow and will let him know what happened with my flame.. He’s been in the business for 30 years and both him and his employee told me to just drip acclimate For two hours and that it would be enough. Don’t want to offend him by saying that I think his practices are not good, lol, so I’m not sure how I’ll go about it yet. Last time I came in about the last fish that didn’t make it from him, they got very quick to defend their no guarantee on saltwater fish. Tough to hear when you spend a lot of money to support a local shop

 

[Bam327]

I’m really fortunate to have a LFS that I would venture to guess is one of the best in the state if not country. This guy has dedicated his life to this hobby. He started out managing the fish section of a pet store. The pet store closed its doors and he took the risk of going out on his own and has been successful. I would put his corals up against any online vendor in the industry. We have developed a great relationship and he has literally refused to sell me things I’m not ready for that I’ve attempted to buy. I go to him first for everything. If he doesn’t have something I’m looking for in particular I will go online, but he always gets first dibs. That’s the kind of guy I will support to the end of my hobby or until he closes his doors. I actually tried to spend even more with him during the pandemic because I know he applied for relief and didn’t get it. I wanted to do my part to help him, because if he went under I would be incredibly sad/devastated.
There are plenty of LFS with zero integrity that I will show no loyalty towards.
I also deal with a somewhat startup LFS that runs his business out of his house. He runs weekly auctions and they are a lot of fun. When I pick up my winnings I’ll add on a couple full priced items I pick out.
Bottom line is you treat me right and gain my trust and I’ll keep coming back and won’t price shop. Screw me over and I wouldn’t hesitate to take my business elsewhere including online.
I work in sales. What a lot of sales people don’t get is taking a hit in the short term to keep a customer happy will pay dividends in the long run.

 

[Bob Weigant]

Well I’m very spoiled having a very good LFS just a mile a way. I would prefer to use a LFS over online. This way I can see the fish and watch it eat

 

[Crabby48]

If LFS is good and helpful I support. I also support BRS because they give back so much.

I am lucky to have a big list of great LFS and a few that go the extra mile Qt’ing fish and high end coral. I support them with happiness.

 

[Dr Jimmy]

I'm also recently struggling with this. Except my LFS sold me velvet fish. Fish 1 died in 12 hours from purchase (they offered $15 off the $70 purchase). Next died the following morning. Despite water tests and obvious visible issues, they started trying to blame me. $100 fish. I saved the last fish that was spasming and struggling to breathe. "Wrasses look like that when they sleep". That fish is only alive today because of the copper treatment because, you know, copper fixes poor water quality . Really feeling like I might be done with the LFS after this. It's been a week and she's not tried to make it right other than offering the first $15 off the $170 in fish that didn't really have a chance

 

[Crabby48]

I'm also recently struggling with this. Except my LFS sold me velvet fish. Fish 1 died in 12 hours from purchase (they offered $15 off the $70 purchase). Next died the following morning. Despite water tests and obvious visible issues, they started trying to blame me. $100 fish. I saved the last fish that was spasming and struggling to breathe. "Wrasses look like that when they sleep". That fish is only alive today because of the copper treatment because, you know, copper fixes poor water quality . Really feeling like I might be done with the LFS after this. It's been a week and she's not tried to make it right other than offering the first $15 off the $170 in fish that didn't really have a chance

Nope if they sell a fish that they know has or could have a problem with out letting buyer knowI wouldn’t support.

 

[Dr Jimmy]

Nope if they sell a fish that they know has or could have a problem with out letting buyer knowI wouldn’t support.

I won't claim she knew they had a problem. But at least two of them clearly did. The lack of recognition there and lack of working to find a customer oriented solution is what puts me off. Given that live aquaria has a 14 day guarantee

 

[Crabby48]

I won't claim she knew they had a problem. But at least two of them clearly did. The lack of recognition there and lack of working to find a customer oriented solution is what puts me off. Given that live aquaria has a 14 day guarantee

Ok. Low level of copper I. Lfs tanks makes it hard to know a problem so I can see how the sale was ok. But Yes they should be resolving the problem.

 

[Arabyps]

My primary concern is the quarantine protocol. As a result, I usually buy online from TSM Aquatics (30+ day quarantine) or Diver's Den which also has a rigorous quarantine program. I don't want to quarantine at home as I have read so many stories about fish not surviving the home quarantine. I have never had any issues with the 2 suppliers I mentioned above and they provide a guarantee - they stand behind their livestock. Having said that, if the LFS performs a proper quarantine which is at least 3-4 weeks with appropriate remedial medication, it should be OK. Based on my experience, most LFS do not and depend upon you to quarantine.

 

[Mark Bradley]

I have two LFS’s and both are happy to offer a ‘guarantee’ period subject to checking water quality of the customers tanks. It’s also helpful that you can speak face2face. If there’s a problem with livestock, arriving online, it’s not so easy - I recently had some corals arrive damaged and there was a bit of ‘tooing and frying’ to get a response. Eventually I got replacements but one of them looks like it was the runt of the litter.

 

[kangadrew]

Sounds like a quick change in salinity was the problem with the flame and possible the other fish.

As far as supporting a LFS - I do all I can to support quality LFS. If the quality goes down, I go elsewhere. We are dealing with living things, it's our responsibility to get them from the best quality sources. The lives of the animals collectively matter more to me than any LFS.

There it is. I find that lower salinities are very stressful on new fish. We had much higher mortality rates both in the shop and in customer tanks before I took over. It had been kept at 1.015 but now I keep it at 1.025-6. It’s not fair to the customer- acclimating from a lower salinity to regular salinity is incredibly stressful and should be done over 3-7 days, not a 2-6 hour acclimation. Flames are sensitive, I’m willing to say that was the cause. I know lfs keeping low salinities are dime a dozen, but it really isn’t as good of a practice as running Copperpower and buying from responsible regions. Copper+low salinity is also extremely detrimental to fish

Haley, would be interested to hear more about your experiences with lower salinity, as some of the most renowned guys in the hobby prefer a salinity in the 1.015-1.020 range in conjunction with low levels of copper for QT (Kevin Cohen, John Coppolino, Ted Krupman, etc).

 

[squampton]

I buy from my local fish store, there really are not many viable options for buying fish online in Canada, and shipping tends to be high, and well my local store is decent, and its pretty standard for marine fish to have little to no warranty, sure online vendors will guarantee live arrival but most wont do much beyond that, plus the only fish selection sucks, corals are better but online fish selling really hasn't taken off in Canada like it has in the US.

 

[vetteguy53081]

For me, price determines this. I support merchants but not greed.