SW Ich question since ppl have had different experiences

[merlberg]

Can ich go away by itself?

About a week ago my black damsel looked like it was covered in ich and

as well as this puffer that i cant identify. My damsel was still swimming around n eating like normal tho. After i added the puffer, thats when my black damsel came down with it as well as the puffer, and i mean my black damsel waa coveres in white dots.

Now its been a week and they are both fine and none of the other fish in my tank caught anything. Did i just get lucky? Or is it possible for it to reappear?

Once i noticed it was ich i fed them with garlic maybe like twice, i purchased a UV sterilizer and i increased the temp. Thinking that would help but after reading several things on SW ich seems like it shouldn't have any affect but at the same time all my fish are fine.

 

[saltyphish]

You still have ich but, the fish are able to fight it off for now. The only way to rid your tank of ich is to remove all fish and treat them for ich in a separate tank and keep your display tank fishless for 72 days or more. Ich must have a fish host to survive. The fish can still have the parasites but you would not see them if they are in the gills.

 

[merlberg]

Ahhhh I see, ok that makes a whole lot of sense. I just couldnt figure out why i do not see the white specs anymore on the 2 fish. Thanks!!

 

[Humblefish]

You still have ich but, the fish are able to fight it off for now. The only way to rid your tank of ich is to remove all fish and treat them for ich in a separate tank and keep your display tank fishless for 72 days or more. Ich must have a fish host to survive. The fish can still have the parasites but you would not see them if they are in the gills.

^^This

 

[ca1ore]

After having kept marine fish for almost 30 years I still cannot satisfactorily explain why sometimes ich proves manageable and other times not. Friend of mine has a tank with a stable population of fish. Hadn't added anything new in almost 18 months and everything was clear. He bought, QT'd, and then added a powder blue tang to his tank and within 3 days it was showing spots. So, while I agree that in order to eradicate ich from ones tank a fallow period is required; clearly asymptomatic ich can exist for longer periods of time.

 

[merlberg]

After having kept marine fish for almost 30 years I still cannot satisfactorily explain why sometimes ich proves manageable and other times not. Friend of mine has a tank with a stable population of fish. Hadn't added anything new in almost 18 months and everything was clear. He bought, QT'd, and then added a powder blue tang to his tank and within 3 days it was showing spots. So, while I agree that in order to eradicate ich from ones tank a fallow period is required; clearly asymptomatic ich can exist for longer periods of time.

Was he able to control the ich on his tang? And how were the rest of his fish?

 

[Humblefish]

After having kept marine fish for almost 30 years I still cannot satisfactorily explain why sometimes ich proves manageable and other times not. Friend of mine has a tank with a stable population of fish. Hadn't added anything new in almost 18 months and everything was clear. He bought, QT'd, and then added a powder blue tang to his tank and within 3 days it was showing spots. So, while I agree that in order to eradicate ich from ones tank a fallow period is required; clearly asymptomatic ich can exist for longer periods of time.

What other fish are in the tank?

It is notoriously difficult to keep an Acanthurus tang in a tank where ich is present, due to their very thin mucous coat. You may never see ich on wrasses, gobies, anthias, angels, etc. and even other genus of tangs due to their thicker slime coats. The parasite just comes & goes freely inside the gills.

@3FordFamily can testify to this.

 

[4FordFamily]

What other fish are in the tank?

It is notoriously difficult to keep an Acanthurus tang in a tank where ich is present, due to their very thin mucous coat. You may never see ich on wrasses, gobies, anthias, angels, etc. and even other genus of tangs due to their thicker slime coats. The parasite just comes & goes freely inside the gills.

@3FordFamily can testify to this.

Yes this is entirely spot on. 9/10 species of acanthurus tangs will die with almost certainty within 6 months maximum due to ich if it has ever been present and you did not run the tank fallow and treat every fish. Your fish may have not shown symptoms for years and you have forgotten all about it.

This is why acanthurus tangs are often "blamed" for bringing ich to their tanks and killing resident fish. While that may be true, it is much more likely that ich was already present (statistically that is true) and the ich parasite did not have an "easy" host and thus could not reproduce significantly enough to be much of a problem. With the addition of an acanthurus tang (particularly powder blue, brown, goldrim, and Achilles) an easy host exists and they will reproduce exponentially faster and the other fish will be bombarded by parasites seeking hosts. By sheer numbers, it can and generally does affect the other fish in the tank that otherwise seemed immune because of their resistance. Some may even die.

In reality, the acanthurus tang just provided an easy breeding ground and they multiplied in numbers to a proportion nearly unfathomable as a result - quicker than the fish could build a stronger immunity to combat them due to this change in their environment.

Think about it like mosquito populations are very low in your neighborhood for several years. One day a swamp is built for some reason and the mosquito problem is exponentially worse. This analogy is actually a poor example because we can escape mosquitos and their life cycle is long enough that it is not as big of a deal. The mosquito population doesn't grow nearly as fast and to the caliber that ich will but it's still an illustration of my point.

 

[4FordFamily]

You still have ich but, the fish are able to fight it off for now. The only way to rid your tank of ich is to remove all fish and treat them for ich in a separate tank and keep your display tank fishless for 72 days or more. Ich must have a fish host to survive. The fish can still have the parasites but you would not see them if they are in the gills.

X3

 

[ca1ore]

What other fish are in the tank?

It is notoriously difficult to keep an Acanthurus tang in a tank where ich is present, due to their very thin mucous coat. You may never see ich on wrasses, gobies, anthias, angels, etc. and even other genus of tangs due to their thicker slime coats. The parasite just comes & goes freely inside the gills.

@3FordFamily can testify to this.

That exactly my point. Under the right circumstances ich can be managed. An important element of the 'right circumstances' is having the right fish. Absent ich sensitive fish, a tank can be deemed ich free for long periods of time when in fact it's really not. In my friends case, his tank contained anthias and wrasses primarily, and it wasn't until he added a tang that the parasite presented itself.

I also agree that removing ich requires fallowing the tank, if one is willing to just keep those fish that are not suceptible, it's not necessary.

 

[ca1ore]

Yes this is entirely spot on. 9/10 species of acanthurus tangs will die with almost certainty within 6 months maximum due to ich if it has ever been present and you did not run the tank fallow and treat every fish. Your fish may have not shown symptoms for years and you have forgotten all about it.

This is why acanthurus tangs are often "blamed" for bringing ich to their tanks and killing resident fish. While that may be true, it is much more likely that ich was already present (statistically that is true) and the ich parasite did not have an "easy" host and thus could not reproduce significantly enough to be much of a problem. With the addition of an acanthurus tang (particularly powder blue, brown, goldrim, and Achilles) an easy host exists and they will reproduce exponentially faster and the other fish will be bombarded by parasites seeking hosts. By sheer numbers, it can and generally does affect the other fish in the tank that otherwise seemed immune because of their resistance. Some may even die.

In reality, the acanthurus tang just provided an easy breeding ground and they multiplied in numbers to a proportion nearly unfathomable as a result - quicker than the fish could build a stronger immunity to combat them due to this change in their environment.

Think about it like mosquito populations are very low in your neighborhood for several years. One day a swamp is built for some reason and the mosquito problem is exponentially worse. This analogy is actually a poor example because we can escape mosquitos and their life cycle is long enough that it is not as big of a deal. The mosquito population doesn't grow nearly as fast and to the caliber that ich will but it's still an illustration of my point.

I agree with your point about ich being present but symptomatic in many tanks (have argued this point many time over on that other site) but disagree with much of the rest. It's a pet peave of mine when folks offer pseudo-scientific explanations for things (even though I have found myself doing it sometimes ). Far better, IMO, to simply offer observations as explanation. So here are mine:

1. My current tank is now two years setup and it contains ich.
2. The parasite intitially presented itself on a hippo tang when converting my prior 90 to the current 265.
3. At the time, I was in the process of running an Achilles tang through quarantine.
4. I agonized for some months on what to best do with the tang, ultimately deciding to put it into the main tank.
5. AT went into the tank in the spring of 2014, and while it does periodically exhibit ich, it is growing and shows no signs of wasting away.
6. Subsequent additions to the same system (though not the same tank) of a convict tang also showed some initial spots, but has now been asymptomatic for a year.

I offer this as observation only (thus following my own advice). Draw your own conclusions.

 

[ca1ore]

Yes this is entirely spot on. 9/10 species of acanthurus tangs will die with almost certainty within 6 months maximum due to ich if it has ever been present and you did not run the tank fallow and treat every fish. Your fish may have not shown symptoms for years and you have forgotten all about it.

This is why acanthurus tangs are often "blamed" for bringing ich to their tanks and killing resident fish. While that may be true, it is much more likely that ich was already present (statistically that is true) and the ich parasite did not have an "easy" host and thus could not reproduce significantly enough to be much of a problem. With the addition of an acanthurus tang (particularly powder blue, brown, goldrim, and Achilles) an easy host exists and they will reproduce exponentially faster and the other fish will be bombarded by parasites seeking hosts. By sheer numbers, it can and generally does affect the other fish in the tank that otherwise seemed immune because of their resistance. Some may even die.

In reality, the acanthurus tang just provided an easy breeding ground and they multiplied in numbers to a proportion nearly unfathomable as a result - quicker than the fish could build a stronger immunity to combat them due to this change in their environment.

Think about it like mosquito populations are very low in your neighborhood for several years. One day a swamp is built for some reason and the mosquito problem is exponentially worse. This analogy is actually a poor example because we can escape mosquitos and their life cycle is long enough that it is not as big of a deal. The mosquito population doesn't grow nearly as fast and to the caliber that ich will but it's still an illustration of my point.

Duplicate

 

[ca1ore]

Yes this is entirely spot on. 9/10 species of acanthurus tangs will die with almost certainty within 6 months maximum due to ich if it has ever been present and you did not run the tank fallow and treat every fish. Your fish may have not shown symptoms for years and you have forgotten all about it.

This is why acanthurus tangs are often "blamed" for bringing ich to their tanks and killing resident fish. While that may be true, it is much more likely that ich was already present (statistically that is true) and the ich parasite did not have an "easy" host and thus could not reproduce significantly enough to be much of a problem. With the addition of an acanthurus tang (particularly powder blue, brown, goldrim, and Achilles) an easy host exists and they will reproduce exponentially faster and the other fish will be bombarded by parasites seeking hosts. By sheer numbers, it can and generally does affect the other fish in the tank that otherwise seemed immune because of their resistance. Some may even die.

In reality, the acanthurus tang just provided an easy breeding ground and they multiplied in numbers to a proportion nearly unfathomable as a result - quicker than the fish could build a stronger immunity to combat them due to this change in their environment.

Think about it like mosquito populations are very low in your neighborhood for several years. One day a swamp is built for some reason and the mosquito problem is exponentially worse. This analogy is actually a poor example because we can escape mosquitos and their life cycle is long enough that it is not as big of a deal. The mosquito population doesn't grow nearly as fast and to the caliber that ich will but it's still an illustration of my point.

I agree with your point about ich being present but asymptomatic in many tanks (have argued this point many time over on that other site) but disagree with much of the rest. It's a pet peeve of mine when folks offer pseudo-scientific explanations for things (even though I have found myself doing it sometimes ). Far better, IMO, to simply offer observations as explanation. So here are mine:

1. My current tank is now two years setup and it contains ich.
2. The parasite intitially presented itself on a hippo tang when converting my prior 90 to the current 265.
3. At the time, I was in the process of running an Achilles tang through quarantine.
4. I agonized for some months on what to best do with the tang, ultimately deciding to put it into the main tank.
5. AT went into the tank in the spring of 2014, and while it does periodically exhibit ich, it is growing and shows no signs of wasting away.
6. Subsequent additions to the same system (though not the same tank) of a convict tang also showed some initial spots, but has now been asymptomatic for a year.
7. None of the other fish in my system show any symptoms.

I offer this as observation only (thus following my own advice). Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Humblefish]

That exactly my point. Under the right circumstances ich can be managed. An important element of the 'right circumstances' is having the right fish. Absent ich sensitive fish, a tank can be deemed ich free for long periods of time when in fact it's really not. In my friends case, his tank contained anthias and wrasses primarily, and it wasn't until he added a tang that the parasite presented itself.

I also agree that removing ich requires fallowing the tank, if one is willing to just keep those fish that are not suceptible, it's not necessary.

Unfortunately, the wrong circumstances can doom an ich resistant fish already battling parasites - heater sticks, extended power loss, injury due to fighting, etc. IMO; a healthy fish is much more able to handle "stressor events" such as those. Back when I practiced ich management, we lost power for a good 24 hrs. I didn't have a generator but was using a battery powered air pump to manage as best I could. A tank I hadn't seen ich present for years suddenly had a huge flare up. Lost about $1000 worth of fish that day; my guess is it got inside the gills compounding the low O2 problem. A buddy of mine who was a QT nut suffered the same power loss for the same duration but had no losses. All he used was a battery powered air pump as well.

You would think that would have been enough for me to see the light. But it wasn't...

 

[robert]

Unfortunately, the wrong circumstances can doom an ich resistant fish already battling parasites - heater sticks, extended power loss, injury due to fighting, etc. IMO; a healthy fish is much more able to handle "stressor events" such as those. Back when I practiced ich management, we lost power for a good 24 hrs. I didn't have a generator but was using a battery powered air pump to manage as best I could. A tank I hadn't seen ich present for years suddenly had a huge flare up. Lost about $1000 worth of fish that day; my guess is it got inside the gills compounding the low O2 problem. A buddy of mine who was a QT nut suffered the same power loss for the same duration but had no losses. All he used was a battery powered air pump as well.

You would think that would have been enough for me to see the light. But it wasn't...

You don't think this story is a bit of a reach?
You had a power failure - you tank went anoxic - and your fish died...of course because of ich...and not running a QT.

How do you know this? Because a buddy - with a different tank - different livestock - different maintenace practices - probably a lot of differences - who practiced strict QT didn't lose fish?

And you hadn't seen a ich presence in years - but it all bloomed that very day....ok...makes sense to me...what else could it have been...

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree with your point about ich being present but asymptomatic in many tanks (have argued this point many time over on that other site) but disagree with much of the rest. It's a pet peeve of mine when folks offer pseudo-scientific explanations for things (even though I have found myself doing it sometimes ). Far better, IMO, to simply offer observations as explanation. So here are mine:

1. My current tank is now two years setup and it contains ich.
2. The parasite intitially presented itself on a hippo tang when converting my prior 90 to the current 265.
3. At the time, I was in the process of running an Achilles tang through quarantine.
4. I agonized for some months on what to best do with the tang, ultimately deciding to put it into the main tank.
5. AT went into the tank in the spring of 2014, and while it does periodically exhibit ich, it is growing and shows no signs of wasting away.
6. Subsequent additions to the same system (though not the same tank) of a convict tang also showed some initial spots, but has now been asymptomatic for a year.
7. None of the other fish in my system show any symptoms.

I offer this as observation only (thus following my own advice). Draw your own conclusions.

This fish is definitely the exception and not the rule. I have killed dozens of at and PBT trying the exact same thing. As have many others in my local club and LFS I worked at. There are always outliers. As humble fish stated its only a matter of time until some stress event shifts the stakes in the parasites favor.

Understand I kept fish and many tangs in ich management tanks for over a decade. Tried many many many times to do it with AT, PBT, powder brown; and goldrim. Lost other acanthurus tangs As well while other species seemed to thrive.

I'm not one to say qt and meds is the only way - it's not. But fish with very little protection (slime coat) and high stress levels in home aquaria are far less likely to survive this way.

I STILL have an ich mgmt reef tank. My wrasse tank is an example. I have a fat blonde naso who has literally never showed symptoms but I know it's there because I've lost a coral beauty and one wrasse to it and didn't treat anything prior to going in.

 

[4FordFamily]

You don't think this story is a bit of a reach?
You had a power failure - you tank went anoxic - and your fish died...of course because of ich...and not running a QT.

How do you know this? Because a buddy - with a different tank - different livestock - different maintenace practices - probably a lot of differences - who practiced strict QT didn't lose fish?

And you hadn't seen a ich presence in years - but it all bloomed that very day....ok...makes sense to me...what else could it have been...

Outlandish, uncommon, whatever you want to call it there are a plethora of events that can significantly increase stress especially for this fish. Try a tank move for instance.

Heaters die all the time. Power goes out all the time. I don't see how that's a stretch by any stretch of the imagination (pun intended). But let's assume it is, there are any number of other stress events that can yield the same results unfortunately.

 

[Humblefish]

You don't think this story is a bit of a reach?
You had a power failure - you tank went anoxic - and your fish died...of course because of ich...and not running a QT.

How do you know this? Because a buddy - with a different tank - different livestock - different maintenace practices - probably a lot of differences - who practiced strict QT didn't lose fish?

And you hadn't seen a ich presence in years - but it all bloomed that very day....ok...makes sense to me...what else could it have been...

I acknowledge every factor cannot be accounted for, but our tanks were pretty similar size & equipment wise. This was at the onset of reef aquariums (for us anyway) so I know all we really kept back then was softies and a few LPS. I can't say what his maintenance practices were like, but I know I was in OCD mode back then when it came to water changes, keeping everything clean, etc. Because, of course, all my corals would die unless they were kept in pristine water.

Our fish stocking list was very similar because we were both poor and actually traded fish back & worth. I actually think neither one of us could have afforded to be in the hobby back then if it wasn't for help from the other. Of course, he QT'd all the fish he got from me. But it was cheap stuff like, say, a Coral Beauty Angel, Yellow Tang, Sixline Wrasse. But of course, it must have been something other than ich when we lose power at the exact same time (a hurricane), lived right down the street from one another (so power was restored at the same time), and my fish are dying/completely covered in white dots, and his are all fine.

Of course, I could turn this around on you and say how do you know it's your highly touted diatom filter that's keeping parasites out of your aquarium. Maybe it's some other maintenance practice you do that none of us know about?

 

[robert]

Well there you go then...the perfectly controlled experimental proof that proper QT prevents fish deaths in a power outage...

Otherwise...all I might have learned from such an experience is that a generator is cheap insurance when a hurricane is coming.

 

[ca1ore]

This fish is definitely the exception and not the rule. I have killed dozens of at and PBT trying the exact same thing. As have many others in my local club and LFS I worked at. There are always outliers. As humble fish stated its only a matter of time until some stress event shifts the stakes in the parasites favor.

Understand I kept fish and many tangs in ich management tanks for over a decade. Tried many many many times to do it with AT, PBT, powder brown; and goldrim. Lost other acanthurus tangs As well while other species seemed to thrive.

I'm not one to say qt and meds is the only way - it's not. But fish with very little protection (slime coat) and high stress levels in home aquaria are far less likely to survive this way.

I STILL have an ich mgmt reef tank. My wrasse tank is an example. I have a fat blonde naso who has literally never showed symptoms but I know it's there because I've lost a coral beauty and one wrasse to it and didn't treat anything prior to going in.

As I noted in my first post in this thread, the reasons for the varying potency of ich have eluded me - and II've been in this hobby 30 years. Although it's possible, I typically dismiss the 'outlier' argument as its inherently a 'lazy' one. Further, that subsequent additions of a few tangs resulted in asymptomatic fish would seem to stretch the odds. I do have my own pet theories, but since they are rooted in speculation and assumption, thus yielding poor conclusions; I'll keep them to myself