Switching Controllers from Apex to GHL

[madweazl]

Got it working! ...

Ditto: I know your thread was originally about comparing GHL to Neptune but I see others have gone off in tangents. I have a very complex ATO system with layers of redundancy and will need help with Programmable Logic. Do you mind if I post the question here or do you prefer I go to another thread? (I plan to spend several hours today working on as much of this as I can and organizing the question).

I'd recommend starting another post in the GHL thread so that other people who may have a similar issue can find it more easily.

 

[MaxFlow]

I have been using GHL for several years now and reliability has been excellent. Not a single issue.

Recently got Apex to run Trident and comparing to GHL usability is awesome. However, I am reluctant to switch the whole system to Apex untill I start trusting it.

It has been three years since the original Apex crash reports. Is it still an issue?

 

[Ditto]

@Dr. Jim - first we are all glad to help, great setup and welcome to the GHL club.

You can ask the question here or in the GHL section of the forums. We are here to help

 

[Dr. Jim]

GHL ATO SYSTEM

Before I go too far with attempting to set up and program my ATO System, I'm hoping if someone can tell me IF it is even possible to do what I'm hoping to do, and answer some basic questions:

With Float valves, when the float is UP, does that turn on or off a socket? I'm guessing that it depends if the INVERTED BOX is checked? (If so, does a checked box turn on or off the socket?)

Below is a picture of my proposed SENSOR setup showing 3 sensors: The main sensor will be the OPTICAL sensor in the middle. The 2 FLOAT sensors, one above and one below the OPTICAL sensor, will act as "backups." So, if the OPTICAL sensor fails in the "off" position, the LOWER FLOAT would turn on the pump(s); if the OPTICAL sensor fails in the "on" position, the UPPER FLOAT will turn off the pump(s). Is it possible to have all 3 sensors control the same pump, or would there be a conflict necessitating a separate pump for the OPTICAL and a separate pump for the 2 FLOAT sensors?

I'm also wondering if I can control different pumps depending on the pH. My plan would be:
-If pH is < 8.3 then a "KALKwasser PUMP" will be activated.
-if pH is > 8.3 then a "NON-KALK PUMP" will be activated.

I'm not asking for someone to "set this up" for me, I'm just wondering if it is possible. I'm thinking that it may not be, because I don't see a way to plug in pH values. I see on the SWITCHES/OUTLETS that you can choose "pH Value-1", then "Control downwards, or, upwards" ….. but I don't think that is going to help me do what I want....unless I'm hopefully missing something. So, if there is a way to plug in pH values somewhere, steering me in the right direction would be appreciated!

To complicate matters even more, I am hoping to have a 3d, "Backup Pump," that would be activated if the other 2 pumps fail. Actually, to simplify matters, I was thinking of just having this Backup Pump be activated at the same time as the KALK or NON-KALK pumps BUT with a set DELAY. That way, it would only come on after giving the other pumps a chance to replace the evaporated water. I think the maximum delay is only 60 seconds, so I'm not sure if that would be enough time, but it would be OK for this pump to run along with the other pump(s) for a while if necessary.

My 3d layer of redundancy will be a gravity fed float valve, positioned below the lowest FLOAT valve!

I know all of this will take a lot of layers of Programmable Logic, but it will be a good "brain exercise" for me! First step is to just learn if it is all possible....so I thank anybody who might comment and/or point me in the right direction.

 

[Ditto]

Lets start with the Sensors.

You could use all 3. Advance Program Logic would be used. You could use the two sensors for ATO which would be your low and High. Or you could use Senor 1 as ATO, Senor 2 as ATO. And Then Sensor 3 as Leak Detector or High Sump. We would then apply all 3 in Advance program Logic, and then apply that to the switch outlet. A few options

For the PH yes it would be based on the PH Nominal Value and the Hysterias Value. Then you would do the PH Control Downward or Upward on the Switch Outlet.

So what you would do is Set your PH Value lets say 8.3 and then your Hysteresis of .20 for example. At 8.4 would activate the downwards, and at 8.2 would be the upwards. (I believe this is right, sometimes I get it reversed)

The Hysteresis value and the Nominal Value determine the amount of the swing and the activation point. Remember what ever Hysteresis value you set it is 1/2 that value before it activated

 

[Dr. Jim]

So what you would do is Set your PH Value lets say 8.3 and then your Hysteresis of .20 for example. At 8.4 would activate the downwards, and at 8.2 would be the upwards. (I believe this is right, sometimes I get it reversed)



What happens if the pH is below 8.2, the lower set value? Would the socket still become activated if set on "upwards" ?

Thank you! This gives me something to start working on! ;Happy

 

[Dr. Jim]

Ditto: I noticed that your 3 options for sensors didn't include what I was hoping to do. Are you saying I can't use my idea being:
the middle Optical Sensor would be the "main" control (i.e. turns off and on pump(s) as needed), with the upper and lower Float sensors as a backup (so they would turn off or on the same pump(s) that the Optical sensor controls IF the Optical sensor fails?

When the float rises, does it turn off or on a switch/socket?

 

[Ditto]

Ok, maybe I miss understood the request

Sensor 2 would be ato. So it would control the pump.

Do you want sensor 3 (upper sensor) to turn the pump on or off when it activates? For example it would be on till activated meaning water raised the sensor Is activated.

Do you want sensor 1 to turn the pump on or off with it activates. Meaning when the sensor activated meaning low water it activates until the sensor activated.

The issue is failure, If the optical sensor fails it going to fail closed meaning the sensor is going to think water is there and is not. That is done as safety and you also have a max on time also which helps which is the max time Setting which is the max time the outlet can be on before it fails and shut it down.

 

[Ditto]

Yes 8.2 and below so if it was 8.1 it will still activate.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Ok, maybe I miss understood the request

Sensor 2 would be ato. So it would control the pump.

Do you want sensor 3 (upper sensor) to turn the pump on or off when it activates? For example it would be on till activated meaning water raised the sensor Is activated.

Do you want sensor 1 to turn the pump on or off with it activates. Meaning when the sensor activated meaning low water it activates until the sensor activated.

The issue is failure, If the optical sensor fails it going to fail closed meaning the sensor is going to think water is there and is not. That is done as safety and you also have a max on time also which helps which is the max time Setting which is the max time the outlet can be on before it fails and shut it down.

I'm sorry if I'm not explaining this well....

The middle sensor (OPTICAL) would be the main sensor. When the water level drops, it would turn on a pump; when the water rises and covers the sensor, it would shut the pump off. QUESTION: Does the sensor turn ON or OFF a socket when the water drops below the sensor? I'm trying to get a handle on the INVERTED BOX and when to check it.

The LOWER FLOAT is a backup that would turn on a pump if for some reason the OPTICAL SENSOR failed to turn on the pump. Again, does the sensor activate (turn on) a socket when the float is down or up? And, does checking the INVERTED BOX make it do the opposite?

The UPPER FLOAT is just a backup. If the OPTICAL sensor fails to shut off a pump, then this float would shut it off.

 

[Ditto]

QUESTION: Does the sensor turn ON or OFF a socket when the water drops below the sensor?
With any level sensor yes it will turn on or off if the water drops below the sensor.

It depends on the funciton you choose and the impact on the invert function.

Let me pull my sensor and my Powerbar out and see if I can do a quick video showing how invert works

 

[Lasse]

Again, does the sensor activate (turn on) a socket when the float is down or up? And, does checking the INVERTED BOX make it do the opposite

With the ATO function it turn the socket on when it's down. Yes - inverted means opposite.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Jim]

RE: My ATO Set-UP
So I don't waste time for anybody else, I Just want to leave a quick message to say that I figured out everything! (It took me from 1pm to 1am, with a few breaks, but I got it!) Gotta run now, but will leave a concluding post later when I have more time which some may find helpful and/or interesting, especially other GHL Newbies like myself.
Ditto and Lasse: Thanks for helping!
Jim

 

[Dr. Jim]

RE: My ATO Set-Up and Early Thoughts About GHL

First, as a GHL Newbie, I want to say that I am absolutely fascinated by the GHL Controller equipment! I love it and find myself immersed in working with it.... so much so that I have to remind myself to look at my tank once in a while! When choosing a Controller brand, the ONLY factor that concerned me was "reliability." I didn't care about cost, technical support, ease of use/learning, or what it can and can't do compared to other brands. I want to be able to go away for a week and not have to worry about my tank. (Well, I'll always worry, but prefer to worry as little as possible!). Of course it is hard to know how reliable is a piece of equipment and to a large extent I made up my mind on what I saw on the "outside." I know you can't always 'judge a book by it's cover' but the quality and construction of the GHL is as good as I could imagine; even the way everything is packaged! Anyway, so far I'm glad I went with GHL.

I know my ATO programming would be my biggest challenge because it was a bit more complicated than perhaps it had to be, but I want several layers of redunancy with an ATO. When I travel, my sump water level is my biggest worry. I don't want a flood and I don't want the sump to run dry! In case anyone is interested, I will present my set-up below...but won't be offended if anyone wants to skip over it!

But first, let me mention a couple of things that might help other Newbies. There are 2 things that wasted a lot of my time because they weren't well explained in any of the manuals or videos (unless I missed them):
a) When using a splitter for the Level Ports, they don't tell you which branch is for #1 and #2. You would think it would go from Left to Right....but no, it goes from Right to Left!
This may not be difficult to figure out for a simple ATO set-up, but for a complicated one, like mine, it became frustrating. I lost several hours because of this and the next issue. (It is a good thing my wife is gone for a week because there was a lot of cursing over a 12 hour period....I'm ashamed to admit!)
b) I couldn't find anything to say if the Float Levels (and Optical Sensor) is "ON" in the UP or DOWN position....and what exactly does checking the INVERTED BOX do. (I now know that when the float is down, it is "ON" and the INVERTED BOX does the opposite).

(I really wish GHL would combine the 3 main Manuals (Profilux 4 Manual, Programming Manual and Resource Guide) into one organized Manual with a nice Chapter so one doesn't have to scroll thru 3 manuals every time you want to read up on one subject or procedure).

MY ATO:

 

[Dr. Jim]

oops...got sent before I was ready....

MY ATO:
Just in case anyone is interested in getting ideas for an ATO with layers of redundancy, and the use of pumps influenced by pH (for use of kalkwasser), I will present it here:

Here are the PUMPS and SENSORS used for ATO, with their “assigned names”:

PUMPS

-“KALK”: pumps water from RO/DI reservoir thru kalk reactor then to sump; (Sicce pump)
-Activated when pH < 8.3

-“NON-KALK”: pumps water from RO/DI reservoir directly to sump; (GHL MAXI DOSER)
-Activated when pH > 8.3 (Note: I may change pH settings; hysteresis may not allow activation at these exact values.)

-“BACK-UP”: pumps water from RO/DI reservoir directly to sump if either or both of above 2 pumps fail; (Sicce pump)



SENSORS (top to bottom); See picture in an earlier post.

-“HIGH FLOAT SENSOR”: (used to turn off all 3 pumps in case of failure)

-“OPTICAL SENSOR”: (Main sensor used to control KALK and Non-KALK pumps)

-“LOW FLOAT SENSOR”: (Turns on BACKUP PUMP in case of failure of OPTICAL sensor)

-there is a gravity-fed float valve below the LOW FLOAT SENSOR which is part of Red Sea 170 sump for a 3d layer of redundancy. Not relevant to discussion though.





SOCKETS and PROGRAMMABLE LOGIC (P.L.)
AND and OR refer to the FUNCTION in P.L.


#6 – KALK PUMP: P.L. 6 = HIGH FLOAT “ON” AND P.L. 2
(P.L. 2 = pH UP AND OPTICAL SENSOR “ON”)
“ON” refers to the DOWN position of the float.

#13 – NON-KALK PUMP. (Socket assigned to GHL MAXI Doser):
P.L. 7 = HIGH FLOAT “ON” AND P.L.3
(P.L. 3 = pH DOWN AND OPTICAL SENSOR “ON”)
“ON” refers to water level BELOW the Optical Sensor

#8 – BACKUP PUMP: P.L. 9 = P.L. 5 AND P.L. 8
P.L. 5 = LOW FLOAT “ON” AND HIGH FLOAT “ON”
P.L. 8 = OPTICAL SENSOR “ON” OR “OFF” (just in case the OPTICAL sensor fails)

So...that's it! Simple, huh?!
Thank you again for everyone that helped!

 

[Dr. Jim]

ATO SYSTEM (Con't)..... Dr. Jim

I see that I'm not getting much response to my previous posts so I won't drag this on.... but I'd like to mention that I did run into two problems with the OPTICAL sensor being coupled with "pH upwards (increase)" for my kalk pump; and, "pH downwards (decrease)" for the "non-kalk" pump. (The "BACKUP PUMP," working off the float sensors, works fine and the OPTICAL sensor works fine when I remove the "pH control" from the programming.)

1) First, am I correct in using the pH upwards (increase) for the pump I want to use for adding kalk or should I be using the pH downwards (decrease) for that pump? (I want to increase the pH using kalk). (I'm pretty sure I got it right, but wouldn't mind confirmation).

2) I found that to get them to work, I had to check the INVERTED BOX for the "pH upwards" and "pH downwards." I'm happy to have them working but I'm trying to understand what the checked INVERTED BOX is doing in this case, (and why it is needed). If anybody could explain this, I would find it very helpful and interesting.

3) After fussing with the programming again tonight, I'm finding that sometimes both pumps come on at the same time. I'm guessing it may be because my pH tonight is exactly 8.25 and that is what I have my pH probe set at, with a 0.05 hysteresis. I'm guessing that I may only get one pump at a time to run (either the Kalk or non-Kalk pump) only if the pH strays below 8.20 (8.25-0.05) or above 8.30 (8.20+0.05), respectively. Does that make sense?

Thanks for helping!

 

[robbyg]

ATO SYSTEM (Con't)..... Dr. Jim

I see that I'm not getting much response to my previous posts so I won't drag this on.... but I'd like to mention that I did run into two problems with the OPTICAL sensor being coupled with "pH upwards (increase)" for my kalk pump; and, "pH downwards (decrease)" for the "non-kalk" pump. (The "BACKUP PUMP," working off the float sensors, works fine and the OPTICAL sensor works fine when I remove the "pH control" from the programming.)

1) First, am I correct in using the pH upwards (increase) for the pump I want to use for adding kalk or should I be using the pH downwards (decrease) for that pump? (I want to increase the pH using kalk). (I'm pretty sure I got it right, but wouldn't mind confirmation).

2) I found that to get them to work, I had to check the INVERTED BOX for the "pH upwards" and "pH downwards." I'm happy to have them working but I'm trying to understand what the checked INVERTED BOX is doing in this case, (and why it is needed). If anybody could explain this, I would find it very helpful and interesting.

3) After fussing with the programming again tonight, I'm finding that sometimes both pumps come on at the same time. I'm guessing it may be because my pH tonight is exactly 8.25 and that is what I have my pH probe set at, with a 0.05 hysteresis. I'm guessing that I may only get one pump at a time to run (either the Kalk or non-Kalk pump) only if the pH strays below 8.20 (8.25-0.05) or above 8.30 (8.20+0.05), respectively. Does that make sense?

Thanks for helping!

Your posts are very interesting as it gives all of us a better look at what is involved in the setup. My only suggestion would be to start a new post in the GHL forum section and copy and paste some of your previous posts. I think you will find a lot more users in that section and Vinny seems to monitor it daily.

 

[Lasse]

sometimes both pumps come on at the same time. I'm guessing it may be because my pH tonight is exactly 8.25 and that is what I have my pH probe set at, with a 0.05

To solve that problem - please read the manual according virtual probes. Virtual probs let you use different nominal values to the same physical probe. Very handsome in a case like this

It could be very good if you do like @robbyg say. Publish in an own thread.

Can you publish your PL for the kalk pump and for the "normal" pump?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[William Robinson]

Chiming in mainly to follow... I was about 2 clicks away from purchasing an APEX controller system this morning and just decided to scroll through the reviews (4 out of 5 stars on BRS). Well out of the first 5 posted, only one review was not 1 star and they all spoke about failures and zero customer support and thats since January... Exploring other options now that may include exactly my "wants" of a controller system.
I would like basic control/automation through in home network AND cloud base. Monitoring Temp, Cal, Mg and Alk, Automated control/dosing of Cal, Mg and Alk based on monitored parameters.
My ATO is independent and worked for many years so as the old saying goes, If it aint broke...

 

[Kyl]

Just for my personal history, of all those I've talked to that have switched, the only regret I have heard from some is that they should have switched sooner. The ProfiLux ecosystem is not as refined UI wise as Fusion is, nor are the operating methodology in many cases, it can be confusing at times when you get things like PL gates involved. That said, I have personally scaled back my "must do everything in one box" mindset and value having some things not directly controlled by the P4, but can be affected by it.