Flipping my collar back up as we speak
switching from 2 part to kalk.
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Flipping my collar back up as we speak
mcarroll
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Hm. That's two oddly hostile posts in this thread.
You guys realize you are welcome to contribute and be as critical as you like, but the Oscar The Grouch routine is unnecessary, right? This is R2R - not that other site.p
If you read the thread title, you'll notice the OP wants to switch to kalk. I think I'vs made my reasoning pretty clear if you read my posts and links, so correct me if I'm wrong or post if you disagree. (This usually can go without saying.)
-Matt
Its not hostile at all. I just don't understand how someone with experience in using kalk would advise someone with no experience to use vinegar with it. There's already a risk involved with the use of kalk because if not done properly it can nuke the entire tank. I don't know when the last time you read the articles or how much of them you remember, so I suggested to read them both again. In my opinion you have given terrible advice to someone because they have no clue on how all of this works yet. You instantly jumped on using vinegar and that being the appropriate way to dose kalk, and that's completely false. There is a good chance no vinegar is needed at all, but the OP won't know that because they started with a more advanced method of dosing with the vinegar. The point I'm making is that I would suggest using the most basic form of dosing until its determined an advanced method should be used.
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b_rad_G
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When someone refers to saturated lime water they mean approx 2 tsp per gallon of fresh water. You can mix 200 tsp to 100 gallons of water it doesn't matter. If you put 2 cups of kalk in 1 gallon of water 2 tsp will be dissolved and the rest will settle as calcium hydroxide. that calcium hydroxide and be mixed with new fresh water and roughly 2 tsp will dissolve in the new fresh water and so on. This is how a reactor works.
If you add vinegar to the fresh water it will increase the amount of kalk dissolved. I think at 25 ml per gallon the saturation takes 3 tsp of kalk. (Don't hold me to the vinegar number here). The point is you now have a saturation 1.5 times as potent. In some instances this is helpful but most cases it is unnecessary. Mixing vinegar in a 6 gallon fresh water container could create a bacteria bloom and use the acetate before it ever reaches the reactor.
To the op.
The best way for you to utilize kalk would be to mix a weeks worth of kalk in a container at 2 tsp per gallon of rodi water. Let it settle for a few hours. The solution should be mostly clear with some crud on the bottom. You want to desperate the crud from the mostly clear liquid. Once you have done this you can use the calculator to figure how much per day to dose. I assume you have some type of dosing pump? Just plug in the numbers to dose the desired amount of kalk solution.
You must make sure you don't dose more than the evaporation rate of your tank! You need to be sure to dose in a high flow area. Most people do it in their sump. The thin film on top of the solution isn't a bad thing. It seals the mixture and keeps carbon dioxide from getting in there. Don't mix the solution with a power head or air stone. Aeration will let carbon dioxide in causing precipitation of the calcium and alkalinity.
If dosing causes pH to rise. 1 dose less during the day and more at night. This can help the daily pH swing. 2. You can add some vinegar to the solution after you separate the crud and clear stuff. I don't think you will have this problem.
Don't dose the crud. It is not necessarily bad but its all the impurities in dry kalk. It is magnesium phosphate possibly heavy metals in small concentration. Try to not get that in your tank.
If you add vinegar to the fresh water it will increase the amount of kalk dissolved. I think at 25 ml per gallon the saturation takes 3 tsp of kalk. (Don't hold me to the vinegar number here). The point is you now have a saturation 1.5 times as potent. In some instances this is helpful but most cases it is unnecessary. Mixing vinegar in a 6 gallon fresh water container could create a bacteria bloom and use the acetate before it ever reaches the reactor.
To the op.
The best way for you to utilize kalk would be to mix a weeks worth of kalk in a container at 2 tsp per gallon of rodi water. Let it settle for a few hours. The solution should be mostly clear with some crud on the bottom. You want to desperate the crud from the mostly clear liquid. Once you have done this you can use the calculator to figure how much per day to dose. I assume you have some type of dosing pump? Just plug in the numbers to dose the desired amount of kalk solution.
You must make sure you don't dose more than the evaporation rate of your tank! You need to be sure to dose in a high flow area. Most people do it in their sump. The thin film on top of the solution isn't a bad thing. It seals the mixture and keeps carbon dioxide from getting in there. Don't mix the solution with a power head or air stone. Aeration will let carbon dioxide in causing precipitation of the calcium and alkalinity.
If dosing causes pH to rise. 1 dose less during the day and more at night. This can help the daily pH swing. 2. You can add some vinegar to the solution after you separate the crud and clear stuff. I don't think you will have this problem.
Don't dose the crud. It is not necessarily bad but its all the impurities in dry kalk. It is magnesium phosphate possibly heavy metals in small concentration. Try to not get that in your tank.
mcarroll
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You're inferring a awful lot about me as well as the OP just to make one little point at the end...maybe you know the OP, but prolly best to stick to the ideas and topic at hand until you know me better.
Besides, you are acting like this is the first person given this advice - or that they'd be the first to succeed with it....or the first NOT to succeed....or that the OP isn't smart enough to figure it out or ask questions. If you have better advice, just give it. If you've found an error, correct it. No need to dig on someone in the process.Now let's turn on the air conditioning and get back to the topic at hand....if the OP hasn't given upon us yet!
There is significant risk involved with dosing kalk. We agree!
Because of this, two-part is really a better way to start IMO. However, the OP has done two-part and is going in the other direction.Thankfully, almost all of the risks and difficulties inherent to plain kalkwasser are ameliorated with the addition of vinegar. The fact that you consider adding vinegar "advanced" is really just because that's how it was probably presented to you. There's nothing particularly correct about that in my experience.
Think about it: using plain kalk is trickier and more error prone in many ways - even dangerous to handle. Why isn't that more "advanced"?
Aside from using a reactor, mixing with vinegar (i.e. conversion to calcium acetate) is the only other practical, safe and easy way to take advantage of kalk. I don't want to jinx the OP, but honestly I've never had anyone have a problem using this method...lots of folks using it before I came along too.
And as I said at the very beginning of the thread, there are lots of ways people have used kalk successfully....this is what my preference is and why.
-Matt
b_rad_G
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I am not meaning to pick here but I have just read some of the directions you have posted. In particular this section.
The problem with allowing the CO2 reaction to occur as you mix your Kalk in a container without Vinegar is that you are mixing it in a comparatively small quantity of water that contains only a very limited amount of CO2. So, instead of having enough CO2 to go all the way to useful Bicarbonate ions (HCO3-, or Alkalinity) as you want it to, the chemical reaction stops at the undesirable Carbonate ion (CO3--). This is what sets the stage for the Calcium ions to precipitate out as useless solid Calcium Carbonate while still in the mixing container -- the Kalk mixes with SOME CO2, but not with ENOUGH CO2.
If your mixing container contained ample CO2, i.e., enough to fully react all the Kalkwasser as Bicarbonate ions, you would indeed then want to do all the mixing with CO2 right there in the container. It's only because there's not enough CO2 present in the small container that you need to limit the mixing to avoid precipitation.
Then we have randy Holmes Farley.....
When carbon dioxide is dissolved in water, it hydrates to form carbonic acid:
15. CO2 + H2O Ã H2CO3
Then, if the pH is above 11, as it is in limewater, the carbonic acid equilibrates to form mostly carbonate:
16. H2CO3 + 2OH- Ã 2H2O + CO3--
It is the carbonate that we are concerned with in the degradation of limewater. It can combine with the calcium in limewater to form insoluble calcium carbonate:
17. Ca++ + CO3-- Ã CaCO3 (solid)
The result of this reaction is visually obvious. The calcium carbonate can be seen as a solid crust on the surface of limewater that has been exposed to the air for a day or two (do not bother to remove this crust, it may actually be protecting the underlying limewater from further penetration by carbon dioxide). The formed solids also settle to the bottom of the container (as described above). Since solid calcium carbonate is not an especially useful supplement of calcium or alkalinity, this reaction has the effect of reducing the limewater’s potency. With sufficient exposure to air, such as by aeration or vigorous agitation, this reaction can be driven to near completion, with little calcium or hydroxide remaining in solution.
The problem with allowing the CO2 reaction to occur as you mix your Kalk in a container without Vinegar is that you are mixing it in a comparatively small quantity of water that contains only a very limited amount of CO2. So, instead of having enough CO2 to go all the way to useful Bicarbonate ions (HCO3-, or Alkalinity) as you want it to, the chemical reaction stops at the undesirable Carbonate ion (CO3--). This is what sets the stage for the Calcium ions to precipitate out as useless solid Calcium Carbonate while still in the mixing container -- the Kalk mixes with SOME CO2, but not with ENOUGH CO2.
If your mixing container contained ample CO2, i.e., enough to fully react all the Kalkwasser as Bicarbonate ions, you would indeed then want to do all the mixing with CO2 right there in the container. It's only because there's not enough CO2 present in the small container that you need to limit the mixing to avoid precipitation.
Then we have randy Holmes Farley.....
When carbon dioxide is dissolved in water, it hydrates to form carbonic acid:
15. CO2 + H2O Ã H2CO3
Then, if the pH is above 11, as it is in limewater, the carbonic acid equilibrates to form mostly carbonate:
16. H2CO3 + 2OH- Ã 2H2O + CO3--
It is the carbonate that we are concerned with in the degradation of limewater. It can combine with the calcium in limewater to form insoluble calcium carbonate:
17. Ca++ + CO3-- Ã CaCO3 (solid)
The result of this reaction is visually obvious. The calcium carbonate can be seen as a solid crust on the surface of limewater that has been exposed to the air for a day or two (do not bother to remove this crust, it may actually be protecting the underlying limewater from further penetration by carbon dioxide). The formed solids also settle to the bottom of the container (as described above). Since solid calcium carbonate is not an especially useful supplement of calcium or alkalinity, this reaction has the effect of reducing the limewater’s potency. With sufficient exposure to air, such as by aeration or vigorous agitation, this reaction can be driven to near completion, with little calcium or hydroxide remaining in solution.
b_rad_G
Active Member
One writer says carbon dioxide will complete the process and convert calcium hydroxide to bicarbonate. The other very clearly states carbon dioxide will cause carbonate and precipitation rendering the solution basically worthless for our purposes.
I hope you don't take this as rude or as an attach but I stopped reading the article you posted when I got to that point. Maybe I am missing something or reading it wrong. (I've never claimed to be the smartest)
If I am understanding everything correctly the first quote is completely wrong. Not only is it wrong it is completely backwards to how things actually work!?! Maybe it has gone completely over my head but if what I think is right I would never take dosing advice from that particular person!
I hope you don't take this as rude or as an attach but I stopped reading the article you posted when I got to that point. Maybe I am missing something or reading it wrong. (I've never claimed to be the smartest)
If I am understanding everything correctly the first quote is completely wrong. Not only is it wrong it is completely backwards to how things actually work!?! Maybe it has gone completely over my head but if what I think is right I would never take dosing advice from that particular person!
OP
OP
mjr
Active Member
Update: I think I have the kalk drip holding steady at 3000 milliliters per day. That's based on the two-day average, so the jury's not exactly out on whether or not that rate will hold steady. It also appears that this is not quite enough to keep up with my alk demand. After one day of dosing with no vinegar at 3000 milliliters per day I was left with a 2 dkh deficit an kalk. After one day of the same volume of kalk bur with vinegar, I am left with a 1dkh alk defect. I will try mixing my next batch of kalk with a higher concentration vinegar to see if it makes up the difference.
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mcarroll
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I would read it start to finish, more than once. Space out the readings by a day. It's a one-pager, but it's extremely dense and written a bit conversationally in the second half. If you skim it, it's unlikely you'll get much from those parts - and there's a lot in there. Unfortunately, it's not a 1...2...3 set of instructions. (I dunno if I would trust any dosing instructions that were that simple.
) I still have to pause and re-read it occasionally, so I am not exaggerating. The good part is that it does cover about all the subjects, including too much and too little CO2. Even if you aren't including vinegar I think this is about the best kalk guide that's been written.I do like all the other kalk links people have posted too - some are a lot more complete in different ways, but none are as directly, practically useful, IMO. This makes them nicely complementary as long as you have time/inclination to digest them all. Not everyone does, so I start with my preferred guide 99% of the time.
-Matt
Something isn't right if you're alk consumption is 2dkh per day and CA consumption is 50 per week. Several months ago I had about the same issue you do, high alk consumption and what I thought was extremely high CA and very little consumption. I also used salifert to test. I at first was testing over 500ppm, and after a few weeks it was down to 480. Somehow I ended up using a different test kit and my CA by that kit was 320. I figured my salifert kit had gone bad, so I ordered a new salifert kit, and it had the same high reading. After this I ordered 2 different tests (elos and API) both these kits tested in the low 300's and both had the same result. For some reason salifert was giving me a false high reading. I trust the other 2 kits because they end up with the same result, and were compared to yet another test (red sea pro) which came up with the same number.
I figured I would share that story with you because I am thinking you may be having a similar experience that I was. I would suggest having someone else test your CA with a different kit to see what they come up with.
mcarroll
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As I said at the start, there will be some usage disparity, but if it seems "large" then something is up.
Precipitation is one cause to consider if you're not using vinegar. Kalk raises pH which makes precipitation likely...and precipitation will kill your alkalinity seemingly without putting a dent in your calcium. (This is just how much more calcium there is in the system vs carbonates...lots!)
Also, if you've ever had a precipitation event (whether using kalk or 2-part, etc), all the residues left over in the tank (could be mostly invisible) will continue "eating alk" like this for a while. Triple-check magnesium levels...good magnesium levels will slow or maybe stop the effect. Keep up water changes too if this was the case.
-Matt
Not on that scale with normal calcification. I believe the ratio is 1dkh per 20ppm approximately. So if you're consuming almost half as much dkh per week as ppm CA something else is going on. If your calcium consumption was somewhere remotely close within balance, like 35ppm daily with 2dkh then I wouldn't think something else is going on. But a daily consumption of 7ppm CA and 2dkh, there's definitely something else going on.
Daniel@R2R
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Couldn't this happen if we're talking about softies like Z's & P's that don't use much cal? I'm thinking if the tank were zoa dominant, then this could happen.
I didn't consider that, and I'm not exactly sure what the alk demand is for softies. 2 dkh per day is a fairly large number for any kind of tank. I'm thinking you would have to be completely packed from wall to wall to see that high of an alkalinity demand with softies. I have 40 sps and about 35 lps with around 40 different types of zoa and my consumption isn't that high.
I'm not a reef chemistry expert, or even novice..... But something doesn't seem right with these values. Josh might be able to chime in with alkalinity demand with softies.
I was mistaken on the balance... Its 1 meq/l (not dkh) per 20ppm CA which is 2.8dkh per 20ppm.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/
