Tandem breaker and gfci

[Jasper05]

Disclaimer: my electrical knowledge is minimal.

I want to put a tank in my basement. The outlet is connected to a 20 Amp tandem breaker. I researched that a tandem breaker is not compatible with GFCI. Does anyone know about this?

Does this mean a gfci outlet cannot be installed on the circuit?
Would a gfi surge protector work instead?

If none of the above, is it a lot of work to put the tandem breaker on two different breakers? I would hire this out.

 

[Jasper05]

Bump. Calling all electricians!

 

[Greg P]

@Paul B @Brew12

Good luck !

 

[Sayn3ver]

What brand and make of panel? Square d? Eaton? Siemens? Other?

Each manufacturer typically has two panel model lines or more.

I'm not aware of any Tandem/twin breakers available in an afci, gfci or combination type.

Installing a gfci outlet on a branch circuit supplied by a tandem breaker shouldn't create any issue. You can install additional normal outlets downstream of the gfci wired to the gfci outlet's "load" side to gfci protect them. Just check with the gfci outlets documentation to verify the maximum number of downstream outlets allowed. Also be aware adding outkets downstream does not increase overall ampacity of that circuit as all current will pass through that first gfci device. They make dead front gfci devices as well.

Just be aware that the most recent one or two code cycles have pretty much eliminated the legal use of tandem breakers in residential settings, not because they are unsafe but because almost every circuit either is required to be afci protected or GFCI protected in a single family home. Besides a few exceptions, the code essentially wants all parts of branch circuiting afci protected leaving you with the need for afci breakers which are not available in twins afaik. Obviously if you are not having this inspected or it's an existing circuit, then afci protection and recent code changes need not apply.

Personally afci's are a bit if a joke. Search for joule loading afci to see how this more common electrical failure (heat and thus fire caused by a lose high impedance connection at an outlet or switch or other termination) isn't typically caught or tripped by the fancy $50 afci breakers.

Sorry for the long winded response.

 

[billandwende]

While tandem breakers are sometimes found in older breaker panels where there isn't room for all the necessary standard circuit breakers, they are rarely, if ever, used in new construction, due to new requirements requiring that most residential circuits have AFCI (arc-fault circuit interrupter) protection. This protection is usually offered by special AFCI circuit breakers, which are not currently offered in tandem styles. Nor are tandem breakers currently available in GFCI models, so in situations where a circuit requires either AFCI and/or GFCI protection, the only option is a standard circuit breaker. Tandem circuit breakers are not an option in these circumstances.

 

[billandwende]

What Sayn3ver said.

 

[Greg P]

For clarity, post a picture of your panel with the cover removed (if you're brave)

 

[Jasper05]

What brand and make of panel? Square d? Eaton? Siemens? Other?

Each manufacturer typically has two panel model lines or more.

I'm not aware of any Tandem/twin breakers available in an afci, gfci or combination type.

Installing a gfci outlet on a branch circuit supplied by a tandem breaker shouldn't create any issue. You can install additional normal outlets downstream of the gfci wired to the gfci outlet's "load" side to gfci protect them. Just check with the gfci outlets documentation to verify the maximum number of downstream outlets allowed. Also be aware adding outkets downstream does not increase overall ampacity of that circuit as all current will pass through that first gfci device. They make dead front gfci devices as well.

Just be aware that the most recent one or two code cycles have pretty much eliminated the legal use of tandem breakers in residential settings, not because they are unsafe but because almost every circuit either is required to be afci protected or GFCI protected in a single family home. Besides a few exceptions, the code essentially wants all parts of branch circuiting afci protected leaving you with the need for afci breakers which are not available in twins afaik. Obviously if you are not having this inspected or it's an existing circuit, then afci protection and recent code changes need not apply.

Personally afci's are a bit if a joke. Search for joule loading afci to see how this more common electrical failure (heat and thus fire caused by a lose high impedance connection at an outlet or switch or other termination) isn't typically caught or tripped by the fancy $50 afci breakers.

Sorry for the long winded response.

Thanks, I think I understand. Because it is a tandem breaker, the breaker itself is not inherently compatible with AFCI/ GFCI because they dont have tandem GFCI breakers. But I can still install a gfci outlet.

My other issue is that I currently have a 1500 w electric fireplace on that 20A circuit. If I want a tank down there (40 breeder), I imagine I should put the fireplace on its own dedicated circuit? Or leave the fireplace on the current circuit and make the tank dedicated?

 

[Jasper05]

For clarity, post a picture of your panel with the cover removed (if you're brave)

I didn't have time this morning to take the cover off, but here's the panel

 

[Brew12]

@Paul B @Brew12

Good luck !

Thanks for the invite!

Thanks, I think I understand. Because it is a tandem breaker, the breaker itself is not inherently compatible with AFCI/ GFCI because they dont have tandem GFCI breakers. But I can still install a gfci outlet.

Yup, this is correct. They are fine with GFCI outlets.

 

[alton]

Run a new circuit, with 1500 watts of heating that could be considered as continuous load it is full. Tandem/piggy back breakers are not that bad unless they share the same neutral, if the installer used 12/3. In stead of 2 x 12/2

 

[fishguy242]

plenty of room in that box run two separate for your tank gfci if you like,can run regular w gcfi at start of each run

 

[Jasper05]

Run a new circuit, with 1500 watts of heating that could be considered as continuous load it is full. Tandem/piggy back breakers are not that bad unless they share the same neutral, if the installer used 12/3. In stead of 2 x 12/2

What is the implication of a "continuous load"? Does is have a bad connotation - my knowledge is scarce. EDIT: After some reasearch I see a continuous load as a load running continuous > 3 hours.

If I take the cover off later, is it easy to tell if they share the same neutral?

 

[alton]

Continuous load is a load that can be used for more than three hours and only loaded to 80% of the breaker. And normally heating loads are increased to 125% of the actual load. Take your normal 1500 watt bathroom heater as an example and its not considered a continuous load.

 

[Jasper05]

Continuous load is a load that can be used for more than three hours and only loaded to 80% of the breaker. And normally heating loads are increased to 125% of the actual load. Take your normal 1500 watt bathroom heater as an example and its not considered a continuous load.

Thanks!

 

[fishguy242]

yes should be easy to tell if sharing same neutral ,from just what i see is romex ,follow hot from breaker to romex ,see if dedicated white to each ,generally with romex ,is the case

 

[Greg P]

Unless I'm way out in left field here, the WHOLE PANEL shares 1 Neutral.
At least all the ones I've ever looked at. The neutral is part of the panel and has nothing to do with the breaker.
Is that what you meant?

 

[Greg P]

Are you looking to put a GFI in the panel, or somewhere down the line?

 

[Jasper05]

I think I'm going to put a replace an existing outlet with GFI on the current circuit in question.

I will then have a new, dedicated circuit for my 1500 w heater so I can take it off the existing 20A circuit.

I think this should avoid any issues down the road

 

[alton]

Unless I'm way out in left field here, the WHOLE PANEL shares 1 Neutral.
At least all the ones I've ever looked at. The neutral is part of the panel and has nothing to do with the breaker.
Is that what you meant?

Typical the only time there is a neutral is to the panel when you use 12/2 to feed the branch circuits. Then you have an ungrounded circuit(black wire) grounded (white wire) and Grounding (green or bare) But i have seen when using tandem or two pole breakers the use of 12/3 or 10-/3 which then the white wire is once again considered a neutral carrying the unbalanced load back to the panel.