Tandem breaker and gfci

[Greg P]

Typical the only time there is a neutral is to the panel when you use 12/2 to feed the branch circuits. Then you have an ungrounded circuit(black wire) grounded (white wire) and Grounding (green or bare) But i have seen when using tandem or two pole breakers the use of 12/3 or 10-/3 which then the white wire is once again considered a neutral carrying the unbalanced load back to the panel.

This is where I was asking for a picture inside the panel. What I've always referred to as single phase 220, although I'm sure that's not correct.
Essentially we're talking 2 hots and 0 neutral, ya?

 

[Greg P]

I think I'm going to put a replace an existing outlet with GFI on the current circuit in question.

I will then have a new, dedicated circuit for my 1500 w heater so I can take it off the existing 20A circuit.

I think this should avoid any issues down the road

Just to rule things out, you'll need to remove the panel to check that the double pole breaker is feeding 2 branches independantly, and not as I mentioned above

 

[Jasper05]

Just to rule things out, you'll need to remove the panel to check that the double pole breaker is feeding 2 branches independantly, and not as I mentioned above

Maybe this is obvious... Would it be wise of me to shut the main off before unscrewing the panel?

 

[Greg P]

Maybe this is obvious... Would it be wise of me to shut the main off before unscrewing the panel?

If you're not comfortable with electrical, MOST definitely shut off the main first
Depending on who was in there last, you never know what you may find and safety is key

 

[Greg P]

Thanks, I think I understand. Because it is a tandem breaker, the breaker itself is not inherently compatible with AFCI/ GFCI because they dont have tandem GFCI breakers. But I can still install a gfci outlet.

My other issue is that I currently have a 1500 w electric fireplace on that 20A circuit. If I want a tank down there (40 breeder), I imagine I should put the fireplace on its own dedicated circuit? Or leave the fireplace on the current circuit and make the tank dedicated?

If that 20A breaker, although twinned, is just 2 separate circuits, you could replace it with a single 15A for the fireplace, and a second 15A could become your new tank circuit.
This of course all depends on where and what gauge wires were run.
Hopefully it's 2 separate circuits.
It'll help to have someone tell you what things turn off when you turn the breaker off.

 

[Greg P]

Take a picture of the wires in that 'tandem' breaker and post it

 

[Jasper05]

Take a picture of the wires in that 'tandem' breaker and post it

Thanks. I will try to take it tonight

 

[Jasper05]

Hopefully someone knows what they're looking a because I dont lol

 

[alton]

With power off locate the black wire before it leaves the panel with its own white wire. This is to make sure it is not sharing a neutral with another hot. Since I did see a black and red I would think it is not and you can add a gfci plug your the circuit

 

[Jasper05]

With power off locate the black wire before it leaves the panel with its own white wire. This is to make sure it is not sharing a neutral with another hot. Since I did see a black and red I would think it is not and you can add a gfci plug your the circuit

I can take off the panel later if I need to but in this picture it looks to me that it does in fact leave with its own white wire.

 

[Greg P]

If that 20A breaker, although twinned, is just 2 separate circuits

Nevermind ... I'll leave this one to the experts

 

[Paul B]

I have been a master electrician for 50 years and this thread even confuses me.
Just take the wire off the tandom (or piggy back breaker as we call them in the trade) and put a GFCI (or GFI as we call them in the trade) in one of those spare places. Close the panel and forget about anything else.

Don't remove the panel. This should take you about 45 seconds. Forget about surge protectors.
I live in a new house and I threw out almost all the GFIs and replaced them with regular breakers as they are a pain to have on everything. Just the ones near water, and forget about the code.

In my last house I had all piggyback breakers. If an inspector knocks on your door, tell him to get lost as he is not allowed in unless you are building something and you for some reason applied for a building permit.

If you worried about everything in the code we would never have anything built.

Go out to dinner, when the restaurants re open of course and try the mussels marinara and some Pino Noir. OMG

 

[Jasper05]

I have been a master electrician for 50 years and this thread even confuses me.
Just take the wire off the tandom (or piggy back breaker as we call them in the trade) and put a GFCI (or GFI as we call them in the trade) in one of those spare places. Close the panel and forget about anything else.

Don't remove the panel. This should take you about 45 seconds. Forget about surge protectors.
I live in a new house and I threw out almost all the GFIs and replaced them with regular breakers as they are a pain to have on everything. Just the ones near water, and forget about the code.

In my last house I had all piggyback breakers. If an inspector knocks on your door, tell him to get lost as he is not allowed in unless you are building something and you for some reason applied for a building permit.

If you worried about everything in the code we would never have anything built.

Go out to dinner, when the restaurants re open of course and try the mussels marinara and some Pino Noir. OMG

Thanks for your feedback. I guess my main question was can I put a GFI outlet on a piggyback breaker. It looks like the answer is yes.

My other issue is that I currently have a 1500 w electric fireplace. On that same 20 amp breaker. I think I should put that on its own circuit

 

[Paul B]

No, the answer is no. They don't make a piggyback GFI breaker, but you can put a GFI breaker in one of those spare spaces and forget about everything else. It will be safe, legal, cheap and simple.

And don't worry about neutrals as all your romexs are two wire and have their own neutral.

Yes, put the fireplace on a different breaker as you have plenty of room. You can even put it on the breaker that you removed the wire from for your fish tank.

Don't think to much into this extremely simple fix. ;Wideyed

 

[Jasper05]

Ok thanks. I was under the assumption I could do GFI on the outlet, but not the breaker.

So I'll definitely make the tank on dedicated breaker then

 

[Paul B]

Wait a minute. Yes, you can put in a GFI outlet. "Or" you can do a GFI breaker. It doesn't matter, what ever is easier for you as they would both do the job.

Just don't do both.

 

[jimdoss]

Run a new circuit, with 1500 watts of heating that could be considered as continuous load it is full. Tandem/piggy back breakers are not that bad unless they share the same neutral, if the installer used 12/3. In stead of 2 x 12/2

Well, the two circuits in a tandem breaker wouldn't normally share a neutral since they are on the same phase. But, one or both of the tandem circuits could be sharing a neutral with another breaker. If I was in your shoes, just get a AFCI/GFCI outlet for each plug you're worried about. I think they're cheap for the dual protection. And it's doable by you, probably.

 

[Greg P]

Well, the two circuits in a tandem breaker wouldn't normally share a neutral since they are on the same phase. But, one or both of the tandem circuits could be sharing a neutral with another breaker. If I was in your shoes, just get a AFCI/GFCI outlet for each plug you're worried about. I think they're cheap for the dual protection. And it's doable by you, probably.

Any reason you're quoting a post from March 2020?