Tank issues . ..

TonyTank

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I have had a "reef tank" myself for several years. I put the word reef in quotes as my experience with my corals has been discouraging; fish have been ok. (all reef safe) Maybe someone can point out my mistakes and help other newbies, or like me, Wannabes.
I'm seriously considering selling or converting to fish only. But I hate to admit defeat and love the look of a nice coral tank. I'll give some history.
Got into this rapidly 5-6 years ago when my kids and I went to LFS with my brother who had two tanks himself. I had been given a 60 galloon hex tank and had 2 external fluval filters with generally low water flow. Seahorses! Was told vertical tank would be perfect and low water flow as well. Purchased a 150W MH pendant and was off. 6-8 months doing great, then out of ignorance was adding water with salt to make up for evaporation. Not every time, but enough. Mistakenly thought all the white crusty powder accumulating on the tank rim was loss of salt/calcium, etc. (it's not) By the way, don't trust the hydrometers.
Seahorses greatly limit your choices of tank mates so we decided to upgrade and do corals/fish. I purchased a 74 gallon reef ready cube, a 150 w LED (Blueline Phantom), stand, and a sump/refugium. Also several circulators, recently upgraded those to two wave makers hoping the flow changes would be more pleasing to the coral.
It has been running for about 3 years. I always had difficulty with corals. They tend to deteriorate over time. Montis, gone, zoos, mushrooms even. They just begin to shrink, not open, blanch out. Position in the tank does not appear to help. I have a leather coral and a Hammer that seem to be doing well. Anemones also do not seem to do well and shrink down and eventually die (I know they aren't corals, but I just thought to mention them).
I make my own RODI and have tested it and had it tested a LFS. Had my tank water tested at LFS (a few times). Changed my salt (now using reef crystals).
Went from weekly water changes 8-10% to biweekly with about 5% each time and was then told my tank was too clean. Did less water changes (1x/month). Was introduced to dosing and was told that water changes were not essential. I monitored by mg, CA, all levels daily for 2 weeks then initiated dosing with water changes back to about 1 every 2-3 weeks, mostly just to syphon off the sanded. This all occurred over months of trial and error.
After dosing just a few days, noted high CA, mg and it was suggested to add more of a load to the tank. So I did, several SPS, they are not happy. I stopped dosing.
I keep my sg at 1.026/35, temp 79-80 and parameters; mg, ca, all within specs. Also I adjusted my lighting cycle when I read that there is no need for white light for corals, and that it can be damaging; they need blue light, white is more for show.

I have to admit a few things about myself. I do not want to be a scientist. I will check my parameters regularly but anticipate that if I get to a point of stability, the tank will demand less attention. I just can't seem to find that stability.
I also have gotten pretty discouraged which leads me to less attention to the tank over last couple of weeks.

Wow is this a bummer of a post!
 
So my first questions: what are your ph, nitrates, phosphates,mg, ca and alkalinity. Are you running a skimmer?
Salinity is 1.026... temp 78-80 Do you keep a tank journal? This is very important so you can see any trends ... Please post a pic of the tank.
 
I am running a protein skimmer. I keep a journal which initially gave me my amounts for the start of my dosing. Then my mg, kh, CA all seemed to be consistently high so I stopped dosing and added the SPS to give a bigger system load.
I test water a couple times a week now. Numbers remain pretty consistent.
I just completed water tests. This is with 2 weeks of no water change or no dosing.
1.026/35, tempo 80dg, Mg 1600, Kh 10.6, CA 460, Ph 8.2, phosphates 0.8, nitrite 0.1? (water slightly discolored although it did not really look pink, may be 0); nitrate 0.1.
I see the phos is high, mg is high. How do they relate? See anything else?
I'll try to get pictures now as well.
Appreciate the time/feedback.
 
Turned lights up for better visualization.
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You have a nice set up! Don't get discouraged:) I would not dose anything....dosing is best left to the experts. Back to the basics...test the water weekly . I do small weekly sand vac and water change...I have a 45g..I top off daily with fresh water and do a 4 gal wc weekly. I use reef salt as it has the xtras in it that coral needs. I use a product called Chem Pure blue to keep Phosphates in check and I skim dry as well. This is the best I can offer ...hopefully one of the admins will chime in to help you further.
 
Not sure if this has any impact but I thought I'd share. I tend to keep the water level in the refugium on low side. It was suggested in past in case of power outages to avoid overflow. I notice less activity in the skimmer with lower levels and also, some of the crushed live rock and macro algae in the sump gets uncovered slightly. I'm going to raise the water level slightly and maybe add more macro algae to help keep phosphates down.
Thanks for sharing!
 
The sump will only overflow if the output is placed to deep in the tank. Make sure that when you turn the system off to do water changes that the output is out of the water.
I have a sump on my Oscar tank 220g and on my Discus tank 120g. Both are marked with a "LOW" line and "TOP" line . The low line indicates the system needs more water or the pump will start to suck air and will be in danger of burning out...this line is marked 2-3" above the pump. The "Top" line is marked according to how much room is needed in the sump when the system is turned off for drain back before the siphon break. I hope my explanation makes sense.:)

I also want to mention that your refugium section should have light on it. Keep this are clean of detritus as this will be a nitrate factory is you don't.

Keep the water circulating, moving in all three zones of the tank...top, middle and bottom. Cubes can be hard to circulate water in as they are deep.
Make sure your power heads are moving the water in all three areas.

What do you feed and how often? Over feeding can create as big a problem as under feeding your tank...some corals will need to be fed and others only need the correct light to meet their nutritional needs. I use Reef Frenzy....this stuff is awesome for the fish and the coral.

Please don't give up....keep reading ...your system is far to nice to give up on;)
 
Thanks for more feedback. I have my sump marked, I just kept it on low side, I'm raising it to increase the sump capacity. I also have a light that is on timer to come on at night over part of sump area to keep ph more stable.
I use RF also to feed as primary food source. I will occassionally give frozen mysis shrimp or brine shrimp. I have flakes it I'm in a hurry. (I try to use rarely) I also use Marine Frenzy as a treat food. Weekly or so I add Reef Bugs to my food mix. My fish seem to eat anything. I feed twice a day and probably a bit more than needed, which may account for the phosphate level. I am going to cut down a bit.
I agree with circulation in a cube being an issue. I had 3-4 constant flow powerheads in the tank to get each area. Seemed like to get the flow I desired, my sandbed was getting blown around too much. I purchased two wavemakers, which, in a cube, appears to add more turbulence than waves. And I left one small continuously running circulatory to ensure the hidden, back area of my tank is not stagnant.
I have no corals that require spot feeding.
My cleaning of the sump really is only rinsing the catch filter and emptying the protein skimmer. Anything additional might be problematic. I purchased the biggest sump I could fit in the relatively small space in the cube cabinet. My access is tight.
 
I think I see 2 ways to access the sump...front and side? Keeping the sump area free of detritus is really important...how often are you cleaning the sock on the sump? I think cleaning the sump maybe needed.

As for circulation around the tank....you could try using 2 pumps only...put them on the back wall of the cube, 4" from the right hand corner, as you face the front of the tank ... one about 8" deep, the other another 8 "down directly below the first. Then point the out flow at the top of the tank toward the right ,clockwise. This should give you a circulating motion clockwise around the tank ....moving the water and not the sand.

The wave maker could also go on the back wall of the cube in the middle about 4" down.

Have you considered reworking the rock work? You could have a bunch of detritus build up in the and under the mound?


I hope this helps:)
 
I may attempt to modify the cabinet and put an access on the side. Right now it is front only. I will need to make sure not to damage the integrity of the stand.
I have tried several positions for the power heads and think they are providing good moment. At times I leave them on when I add food and see it get distributed around pretty well.
I also talked to the LFS owner (Opened a few months ago. Unbelievable to have one in my small town!) and he is going to stop down to look at my setup.
I don't think I'm having too much of a detritus buildup issue as my nitrates/nitrites are fine. Phos is a bit high but I don't think it's crazy and should be controlled with a few changes to feeding habits and some regular water changes/cleanings. No?
 
My ego is making it difficult to type right now but hopefully, someone else will benefit.
Steve from LFS came over tonight and took a look at my tank. To make long story short, my chemistry is off with very high nitrates. My testing indicated 0.1 or 0.2, his was > 80! So I'm buying new test kits and reviewing my procedure for testing, everything.
My sump/refugium is not circulating correctly, skimmer not working right. (He also thinks it's a pretty weak skimmer and a better one might be wise) Can't say I quite understand entirely but he is coming over tomorrow and for $75.00 is going to clean the tank/sump and get everything working correctly. I'll need to do more research on the skimmer.
It will be a process and take time to get parameters back in order but I think I'm headed in the right direction. I cannot be here for tomorrows cleanup unfortunately, but plan to squeeze as much knowledge out of him as I can over the next few weeks (years).
I guess my lesson in this is to ask more questions.
I opened the side of the stand for better access to the sump and will post picture of same.
He thinks a plexiglass door will allow a nice display refugium.
Anyone have picts of one or an opinion on that idea?
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....Kudos to you! Takes a big person to put their ego aside and ask for help....Having your LSF person get the tank cleaned up will be a hugh help and go a long way to putting you on the right track:cool:

I am very interested to see what he does with the sump....I don''t have room under the cabinet for one...using a canister which has to be cleaned weekly:eek: I am curious what you have for a skimmer right now?

Please keep us posted on how the tank is doing.....I would love to see new picks after the cleaning is done....you are getting a great deal btw ...the price is awesome!
 
He is really reasonable on all his prices does mostly corals and many from his own fragging. Just a little marketing for him as a thank you, his business is Crazy Corals located north of Allentown, PA in a small town, Palmerton. I know he has a website and is on Facebook but I don't know his address.
I'm thinking I may have him come in every few months at that price. He cleaned my lights as well as the sump, made some flow adjustments and offered to clean the back glass in the tank (which I declined as my I've rock is too close to expect that it'll stay clean, the access to parts is just too tight.)
So here are the picts, post cleaning.
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!
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Wow he's good!

May want to look up more info on the lights. Whites aren't just for show, but they are way more powerful than the blue, it's why people run blues higher than whites. Not many people completely reduce the whites. Usually blues are 20% more than whites from what I see.
 
Thanks Lowstorm, I will research further. I had based my statement on a fantastic article, which I can no longer find. I keep my white about about 1/3 of my blue and just have minimal red. I will read further on lighting.
I'm also reading more into sump maintenance. I don't think I'm going to keep it on display, but I do like the look and feel of a clean sump.
Question: Steve (from Crazy Corals) suggested I just leave my refugium light on. I have 12 on/12 off previously. I'm worried about encouraging a return to algae buildup. My protein skimmer is right next to refugium/light and prior to the cleaning, the half facing the light was coated with algae.
I considered placing a black, plastic shield between the light and skimmer. Thought?
 
Your LFS person did a great job! Curious what the water parameters are now.
+1 to having him in to do deep clean every few months:)
 
Wow good cleaning by the lfs!

In a earlier post you mentioned high mag and high phosphate and any possible correlation. None that I know of. Don't worry so much about mag levels. Keep nitrate and phosphate low to almost undetectable levels and they should be fine. Keep you Alk and cal stable and test for them.
 
Lilly: parameters still high and Steve (LFS) told me to expect gradual improvement (weeks, months?). I'm focusing on regular water changes (2 times a week, 4-8 gallons each depending on how much water I get made) and keeping that skimmer working right and the sock clean. I'm told that will do the trick over time.
Rayn: My main concern has definitely changed to nitrate and phosphate levels, which as I mentioned, remain high. I'm trying to be patient and just keeping up with maintenance and let nature do it's thing.
I have been simple maintaining my salinity and every few days will check nitrates. I have not looked at anything else and figured it was somewhat pointless until nitrates are down.
I did check and LFS has website www.crazycoralspa.com; not a big store but if you are in the area, worth a stop.
 
I've been doing frequent water changes. Nitrates still high (> 50) but better.
I have a question and will search for other threads later, but I have a 2-3 inch deep sand bed. May not be considered deep by some standards. It is a mix of crushed coral and some finer sand. Most has been there for years. In fact was transferred from a seahorse tank I started in about 2009?
My assumption all these years was sand acted much like live rock and helped to filter and provide biological advantages to the system. Now, the reading I've seen seems to be pretty one sided that deeper sand beds are generally bad.
I'm really thinking that could be part of my nitrate issue and considering if I should remove much of it.
Thought?
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%

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