The Bacterial Infection Predicament

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish can u please elaborate on antibiotics dosing and what alternatives(human antibiotics) to use if fish specific vitamins ain't available.

You can use any of the sulfa drugs (Sulfathiazole, Sulfamethazine, Sulfacetamide), kanamycin, erythromycin, minocycline, nitrofurazone, tetracycline, penicillin... although the last two can be a little harsh on certain species.

This website contains other antibiotic options: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html

 

[Humblefish]

Also have u faced issues with killing filter bacteria by the antibiotics and ammonia spikes?

Following the initial dosage, there's no doubt that your biofilter is going to take a hit. However, if bacterial levels are healthy then they will quickly adapt to the presence of antibiotics and bounce back.

 

[mcarroll]

It has been documented that marine parasites can be transmitted tank to tank via aerosol at distances of up to 10 feet. While it is very unlikely to happen it is possible.

Aerosol dispersal of the fish pathogen, Amyloodinium ocellatum

If you read the whole thing (highly recommended....not sure if it was always available or not), the conclusion was the opposite for us. We should really stop spreading this info.

Under normal tank conditions, velvet was impossible to spread via aerosol. No infections were recorded at any distance, near or far.

To spread velvet at all they had to simulate outdoor pond conditions where heavy aspiration and heavy wind are real factors.

To achieve this simulation, they used a garden sprayer to force-aerosolize a volume of velvet infected water over a number of test tanks...and they were simulating a windy day with a large fan blowing the spray over the tanks. Under that condition they were able to spread velvet not even quite 10'.

If that describes your home reef situation.....well I'm jealous since it means you must live outside in the tropics.

 

[Humblefish]

I have personally experimented with aerosol transmission using velvet infected fish as the case study. I was able to transfer dinospores from one QT to another using a HVAC duct (in one test) and a fan on low (in another test). The infected QT had a PH pointed towards the surface and admittedly, the two aquariums were only 6 feet apart. This experience closely mirrors the outcome of experiments done by public aquariums I advise.

My two little experiments were enough proof for me to respect the 10 foot rule. Indeed it is going to be a PITA for me to house QT systems at least 10 feet apart further on down the road. Anyone who thinks it is excessive should feel free to disregard my advice on this subject.

 

[foxt]

Great thread! I am wondering if you could add one more "what to do if ..." scenario to your list?

So, your fish has a nasty bacterial infection. You've treated with antibiotics for 10 days and it's still not looking any better. What gives?!

I started treatment when I found a small red spot on a butterfly (you've been helping me with that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/red-spot-on-pyramid-treat-now-or-wait.325661/). I figured I would ask this here, since it fits in with the topic of the thread.

I've treated for 10 days (will go for 14), fed to boost the immune system, and the fish is looking a little better, but the infection is still not clear. What to do if the infection is still there after 14 days, has responded to meds, and there are no other symptoms (like ich, or velvet, or brook, etc).

Do I follow one 14 day regimen (in my case, the triple threat of kanaplex/furan-2/metro) with something different (like NGP)? Do I just wait and watch, pushing the probiotics, hoping that the immune system eventually conquers the infection?

 

[Humblefish]

Do I follow one 14 day regimen (in my case, the triple threat of kanaplex/furan-2/metro) with something different (like NGP)? Do I just wait and watch, pushing the probiotics, hoping that the immune system eventually conquers the infection?

I feel 14 days is enough time before switching over to different antibiotics. If you are using the triple threat and aren't seeing enough positive results, consider trying Nitrofuracin Green Powder, Triple Sulfa Powder, Seachem Neoplex, etc. The challenge here is trying to match the correct antibiotics with the offending bacterium that is afflicting your fish. This can only be properly done via a skin scrape of the affected area and then identity the bacteria under a microscope. Without this you are left with trying a wide spectrum antibiotic and hoping it will successfully target the bacteria on the fish.

It is also important to note that antibiotics, in and of themselves, do not cure a fish. Antibiotics merely control the population growth of bacteria in a fish long enough for its immune system to eliminate them. So, a fish with an unhealthy immune system will never overcome a bacterial infection. You can always try boosting the immune system by food soaking vitamins or even dosing them into the water. Foods laced with probiotics (like LRS) are a good idea too.

Antibiotics are notoriously slow acting in fish, especially when dosed into water. A better way would be intramuscular injections, but not too many hobbyists I know are comfortable doing that. However, an antiseptic dosed into water (e.g. acriflavine) is more effective at providing immediate relief. So I think performing a 90 minute acriflavine bath every other day, alongside antibiotics in QT, is a wise course of action.

 

[foxt]

When switching between antibiotics, what's the protocol? Since the meds need to be redosed every 1 or 2 days, presumably they are gone in that time period. So, safe to end a dose (say of the triple threat) and then just start the new med (say, NGP)?

 

[Humblefish]

When switching between antibiotics, what's the protocol? Since the meds need to be redosed every 1 or 2 days, presumably they are gone in that time period. So, safe to end a dose (say of the triple threat) and then just start the new med (say, NGP)?

Best to do a large water change (at least 50%) and then run carbon for 24 hrs before switching over to using different antibiotics. Just in case any residuals from the previous medication(s) have built up in the QT and are now lingering.

 

[foxt]

Excellent, thanks!

 

[Empress]

I have personally experimented with aerosol transmission using velvet infected fish as the case study. I was able to transfer dinospores from one QT to another using a HVAC duct (in one test) and a fan on low (in another test). The infected QT had a PH pointed towards the surface and admittedly, the two aquariums were only 6 feet apart. This experience closely mirrors the outcome of experiments done by public aquariums I advise.

My two little experiments were enough proof for me to respect the 10 foot rule. Indeed it is going to be a PITA for me to house QT systems at least 10 feet apart further on down the road. Anyone who thinks it is excessive should feel free to disregard my advice on this subject.

Or you could put up a temporary room divider like I did. I used light weight styrofoam wall insulation from the Home Depot. Dirt cheap, easy to cut and keeps salt spray from flying through the air and across the room.

 

[deedubz]

What are your thoughts on setting up a "dunking station" between qts? I mean a bowl of freshwater to just dunk the fish in to hopefully remove any medicated/potentially infected water from the fish before being relocated to the new (hopefully) clean/sterile qt? Or would this give the parasites enough of a break to take hold again?

 

[Kershaw]

@Humblefish do you know if fish carry around there version of staff all over them like humans do. So you get a cut and untreated your own skin can be the source of the infection. Do fish have this same issue? I hope this makes sense

 

[Brew12]

@Humblefish do you know if fish carry around there version of staff all over them like humans do. So you get a cut and untreated your own skin can be the source of the infection. Do fish have this same issue? I hope this makes sense

Worse actually. Ocean water (and hopefully our tank water) is absolutely loaded with bacteria in addition to the bacteria in the fishes mucus layer. They are bacterially sticky creatures in a a bacteria bath.

 

[Humblefish]

Worse actually. Ocean water (and hopefully our tank water) is absolutely loaded with bacteria in addition to the bacteria in the fishes mucus layer. They are bacterially sticky creatures in a a bacteria bath.

+1 Read this: https://www.fishlore.com/Articles/DiseasesTransmittedToHumans.htm

 

[svogun]

@Humblefish @HotRocks With the availability of the Hanna test kit for copper it would be great to see if we could decrease the QT time for velvet and crypto now that we can precisely know that copper is at a therapeutic level. Might be a good experiment

 

[Brew12]

@Humblefish @HotRocks With the availability of the Hanna test kit for copper it would be great to see if we could decrease the QT time for velvet and crypto now that we can precisely know that copper is at a therapeutic level. Might be a good experiment

It would be nice, but the current guidance is based on proper copper levels. The test kits give us a better chance of success, and may allow us to stay on the lower end of the appropriate range, but it won't change the time involved.
It's still going to be 10 days (well, some people say 8) with transfer to a clean QT or 30 days before pulling copper.

 

[mcarroll]

Right....having a test kit does two important things:

1) Allows us to maintain a therapeutic (i.e. effective) dose
2) Allows us to avoid overdose, or at least be aware when it happens

Sub-therapeutic doses and over-doses can both increase chances of early mortality.

 

[HotRocks]

I agree with @Brew12 and @mcarroll

This should decrease fish loss being able to monitor the levels more accurately and treat just slightly above the therapuetic minimum. A reduction in treatment time is going to be difficult to acheive.

Copper only kills the final and free swimming stage of the parasites that are looking for a fish to host.

So as mentioned above, the only way to get fish out of copper quicker than the 30 day timeline, is to use 2 tanks, the first to treat with copper. The second would have to be a sterile tank to transfer fish to after 10-14 days (I personally would go 14, to play it safe). This allows ample time for any trophonts that were attached to fish and feeding, to fall of the fish and enter reproduction stage becoming tomonts. The tomonts are what release free swimmers. Free swimmers or tomites die instantly upon release as long as therapuetic levels are maintained. This is how the cycle is broken.

The tomonts can still actively be releasing free swimmers within the 10-14 day transfer window, so it's important caution is used when transferring. The theory is tomonts are left behind in the copper tank when fish are transferred to the new sterile tank.

 

[Bthomas]

Need some advice.. Hope it's OK to ask questions here
I have what I think is a bacterial infection affecting all 5 of my anthias in quarantine. They have red sores and peeling skin. I have them in therapudic copper atm and have been treating with prazi and metro and, since seeing signs of possible infection, kanaplex.
They've been in metro for 11 days today.
Second dose of prazi went in 4 days ago.
Been at therapudic copper for 4 days.

I'm wondering if I should go ahead and transfer them to another tank out of copper to treat the infection. (no signs of ich or velvet currently) and then put them through 2 weeks of copper after the infection clears.
I ordered some NFG but I won't have it for another 2 or 3 days. All I have on hand is metro and kanaplex atm.

 

[Brew12]

Need some advice.. Hope it's OK to ask questions here
I have what I think is a bacterial infection affecting all 5 of my anthias in quarantine. They have red sores and peeling skin. I have them in therapudic copper atm and have been treating with prazi and metro and, since seeing signs of possible infection, kanaplex.
They've been in metro for 11 days today.
Second dose of prazi went in 4 days ago.
Been at therapudic copper for 4 days.

I'm wondering if I should go ahead and transfer them to another tank out of copper to treat the infection. (no signs of ich or velvet currently) and then put them through 2 weeks of copper after the infection clears.
I ordered some NFG but I won't have it for another 2 or 3 days. All I have on hand is metro and kanaplex atm.

I know that Uronema is very common in Anthias right now so Metro is the best treatment I am aware of. If you aren't doing it already I would also be using Metro soaked food. Uronema can be internal and external with food dosing being more helpful for the internal version.
What type of copper are you using, and how are you monitoring it?