The difference in copper types on wrasses

[mfinn]

I started a copper treatment on my 4 leopard wrasses 4 days ago.
I am using Coppersafe which is chelated copper sulfate.
Someone suggested I use that specific brand. I can't remember who. I've gone through my pm's and looked at threads where I've posted about these wrasses and the need for a copper treatment, but I can't seem to find it.
I wanted to ask why chelated copper instead of ionic copper ( curpermine)?
After reading the literature on cupermine ( now) it seems like a much better choice.
It says it's:

"It is superior to copper sulfate, chloride & citrate: it is non-acidic, less toxic to fish, remains in solution, and does not contaminate the filter bed. It is superior to chelates: it is fully charged (ionic), active at low concentrations, and is removable with carbon. There is more than a four-fold concentration gap between the minimal therapeutic dose (0.2 mg/L) and the toxic dose (0.8 mg/L). Cupramine is easily removable with chemical filtration."


Another thing I noticed with testing, the test kits for ionic copper seem to be more acurate.
Easier to dial in a closer test result.
This API test kit I have to use with the Coppersafe sucks.

 

[Duke4Life]

I wouldn't trust API.

 

[mfinn]

I wouldn't trust API.

I don't too much. But the other tests only go to 1.0 ppm, and the amount of chelated copper needed to kill ick is in the 1.5 ppm to 2.0 ppm.
So what do you do?

 

[mfinn]

Another question I have, should I bail out on this type of copper and start over and go with Cupermine?

 

[Humblefish]

Based purely on anecdotal evidence, chelated copper seems to be the safer route for Leopard Wrasses and other "copper sensitive" species. Cupramine has proven to be problematic time & time again, despite what the ad says on their website. API is not the only test kit which can measure Coppersafe, its just the most cost effective. Hach makes a very good copper test kit which reads both chelated and ionic for $76: http://www.hach.com/copper-free-total-color-disc-test-kit-model-cu-6/product?id=7640217308

 

[mfinn]

I'm curious what your thoughts are on the two main questions.


One of the reasons I'm having these second thoughts is because as I was bringing up the copper level over that past 4 days, I really don't have a exact number on what the copper level is with Coppersafe.
After dosing 8 ml per day for 3 days and adding 4 ml today out of the estimated 33ml needed for 26 gallons, the test results looks as if the level is definitely over 1.0 ppm but somewhere under 2.0 ppm.
The API test kit is the only one I found ( at my local fish store) that reads above 1.0

 

[mfinn]

Based purely on anecdotal evidence, chelated copper seems to be the safer route for Leopard Wrasses and other "copper sensitive" species. Cupramine has proven to be problematic time & time again, despite what the ad says on their website. API is not the only test kit which can measure Coppersafe, its just the most cost effective. Hach makes a very good copper test kit which reads both chelated and ionic for $76: http://www.hach.com/copper-free-total-color-disc-test-kit-model-cu-6/product?id=7640217308

Thank-you. I was typing out my last post at about the same time you were.

 

[Humblefish]

@mfinn Have you had someone else look at the API reading? I know sometimes I'll get my wife to double check for me. I do better reading shades of blue than yellow/brown.

 

[mfinn]

I had to do that this morning my
Her color vision is better

 

[rayn]

In your thread on the leopards I questioned the use of copper with them. This is based on my trial with a leopard wrasse and cupramine.

Didn't go well at all. And it didn't take long.

If yours are doing well with chelated copper I would stick with it with caution. Even if you have to order a good test kit, I would do that to make sure you don't accidentally overdose it.

I know @Humblefish knows more in this area, just giving my experience. I would hate to see you go cupramine and loose them all.

 

[mfinn]

In your thread on the leopards I questioned the use of copper with them. This is based on my trial with a leopard wrasse and cupramine.

Didn't go well at all. And it didn't take long.

If yours are doing well with chelated copper I would stick with it with caution. Even if you have to order a good test kit, I would do that to make sure you don't accidentally overdose it.

I know @Humblefish knows more in this area, just giving my experience. I would hate to see you go cupramine and loose them all.

I really do appreciate any help and replies.
Thank-you.

 

[Griff]

I'm using copper safe right now with a 6 line, hippo, yellow tang, 2 clowns, and 3 chromies. Everyone is doing great. I did bring up the levels slower than I meant to because I have a little live rock in the quarantine. I'm testing levels every other day and they are around 1.5 -1.75. Thank you to humblefish for helping me through the process!

 

[hybridazn]

Are the leopards showing signs of Ich or velvet to warrant a copper treatment? Being they are so sensitive I myself would do a 30 day observation to see if anything were to pop up first.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Copper safe seems to be safer than cupramine with leopards IME. But bringing the copper up slowly seems to make a big difference.

I know in some tanks were I have used copper, live rock and sand absorb a surprising amount. I have, in some cases, had to does 3x's what should have been the necessary amount.

 

[mfinn]

Are the leopards showing signs of Ich or velvet to warrant a copper treatment? Being they are so sensitive I myself would do a 30 day observation to see if anything were to pop up first.

About day 15 of the prazipro ( 2 rounds) one of them was doing the scratching /flashing thing, occasionally. Not all of them, just one.
I would sit and watch their behavior for 10-15 minutes at a time and saw it.
I sit right in front of the tank, so they are very use to seeing me and never hide. It doesn't hurt that I feed 4-5 times a day.

 

[mfinn]

I'm using copper safe right now with a 6 line, hippo, yellow tang, 2 clowns, and 3 chromies. Everyone is doing great. I did bring up the levels slower than I meant to because I have a little live rock in the quarantine. I'm testing levels every other day and they are around 1.5 -1.75. Thank you to humblefish for helping me through the process!

What test kit are you using @Griff ?

 

[Griff]

What test kit are you using @Griff ?

I'm using the API kit. I dosed very slowly over about a week. The rock did absorb a surprising amount of the copper which made it take longer to raise the levels. I was ok with this as I'm in no hurry.

 

[mfinn]

I'm using the API kit. I dosed very slowly over about a week. The rock did absorb a surprising amount of the copper which made it take longer to raise the levels. I was ok with this as I'm in no hurry.

I was wondering because you have very specific numbers and my API test kit goes from 1.0 to 2.0 with nothing inbetween for numbers.

 

[cmcoker]

I have an app I use for estimating my no3 and po4 when it falls between the ranges. Im on Android so not sure if available on Apple. Its aquarium note. They have a tool that you take a picture of your test vial with reference card. There's little boxes you drop on the colors and it gives you a scale of where your sample falls between referee points. I take the pictures in the same light every time to try to have some consistency. I haven't used on copper but plan to in the future.. Maybe it will help your guesstimate of the copper level between 1.0 and 2.0ppm

Screen shot :

 

[mfinn]

I have an app I use for estimating my no3 and po4 when it falls between the ranges. Im on Android so not sure if available on Apple. Its aquarium note. They have a tool that you take a picture of your test vial with reference card. There's little boxes you drop on the colors and it gives you a scale of where your sample falls between referee points. I take the pictures in the same light every time to try to have some consistency. I haven't used on copper but plan to in the future.. Maybe it will help your guesstimate of the copper level between 1.0 and 2.0ppm

I downloaded the app, but couldn't get it to work.
I'll play with it later.
Thanks