The Immeriate Cure for Dinoflagellates

[MrTang13]

Instead of chasing our tails around I just asked Randy directly so stay tuned for an update regardless of it working for or against my argument. either way, I suggest you stop promoting NOPOX as a Dino cure considering the product itself doesn't describe it as so.

It describes itself as algae management. By definition, dinos are an algae. Wrong again.

And where is your source? You told me you would show me yours if I showed you mine

 

[Crustaceon]

Please keep reading the source you just posted.


The link can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-and-no3-and-po4-why-do-i-have-to-worry-now.350315/


Randy later states:

“Has such a thing ever been demonstrated for any organism? I just can't see any plausible mechanism that some extra nitrate and phosphate (not attaining toxic levels), by itself, causes an organism to stop growing.”


Randy wants proof of causation too.

Randy is Harvard educated btw.

So we’re basically supposed to implicitly believe because “Harvard”? lol.

“Has such a thing ever been demonstrated for any organism? I just can't see any plausible mechanism that some extra nitrate and phosphate (not attaining toxic levels), by itself, causes an organism to stop growing.”

That’s just it. These organisms are still present and even growing but as he also states, they could become dominant in low nutrient environments whereas other organisms cannot. This is not too complex for even a high school custodian who went to an automotive trade school to grasp (4.0, ah yeah.). So how about this: Let’s see those tanks that have high nitrates and phosphates AND has a dino issue. Now let’s see those tanks with low nutrients and a dino issue. Let the results speak for themselves. See: Carbon Dosing.

 

[landlubber]

It describes itself as algae management. By definition, dinos are an algae. Wrong again.

And where is your source? You told me you would show me yours if I showed you mine

I thought it was clear as day how I was proceeding from here but I guess I should have known better.
once again... it was your choice to consider my source invalid so instead just bypassed the time wasting and contacted Mr. Holmes-Farley himself to touch on the subject.
or if that's too complicated and you want to really settle this how about just post of couple of photos of your super amazing tank for us all to see. I will gladly match with photos of mine as any person willing to post outlandish advice like you are should have proof that it actually works.

 

[MrTang13]

I thought it was clear as day how I was proceeding from here but I guess I should have known better.
once again... it was your choice to consider my source invalid so instead just bypassed the time wasting and contacted Mr. Holmes-Farley himself to touch on the subject.
or if that's too complicated and you want to really settle this how about just post of couple of photos of your super amazing tank for us all to see. I will gladly match with photos of mine as any person willing to post outlandish advice like you are should have proof that it actually works.

Dr. Holmes Farley*

Where is that source?

 

[Crustaceon]

I’ll take results over name dropping any day. I’m also curious to know how this product differs from other methods of carbon dosing which have been well documented to cause dino outbreaks with excessive and prolonged usage. These examples often include a full list of water parameters that strengthen this notion.

 

[MrTang13]

I’ll take results over name dropping any day. I’m also curious to know how this product differs from other methods of carbon dosing which have been well documented to cause dino outbreaks with excessive and prolonged usage. These examples often include a full list of water parameters that strengthen this notion.

You disrespect Dr. Randy Holmes Farley and Neil Marks, CTO of Red Sea, credible sources.


What are your sources?

 

[landlubber]

confirm you even have a tank troll lol

 

[Crustaceon]

You disrespect Dr. Randy Holmes Farley and Neil Marks, CTO of Red Sea, credible sources.


What are your sources?

Even Randy Holmes Farley’s comments don’t prove your pitched product prevents the propagation of dinos and my sources are strewn through hundreds of tanks on the very forums you probably shill these products on, not to mention my own personal experience setting up a frag tank, having low nitrates & phosphates, immediately getting tons of dinos, raising nitrates & phosphates and having them magically disappear WITHOUT using a gimmicky product. IMO it’s far more disrespectful to name drop as if those people can confirm a product that you are pitching doesn’t have the potential of making an existing problem even worse. Anecdotally, I have more sources from actual, physical reef tanks that prove me more likely to be correct than basically an “I don’t know” from a chemist. A scientist say “Yes” or “No” based on laboratory tested results. Even Farley can’t give a definitive answer for this reason.

 

[Dhoggs]

MrTang13...you mentioned on your other thread that after dosing several bottles of DinoX, you claimed that it eradicated dinos from your tank...so I guess it was only temporary?? Now you’re trying a new product and are claiming that it once again works? I see a pattern here [emoji3166]

How much money/credit do you get for every traffic that you send over to the redsea website? Since the link thats on your original post seems to work as a referral?

 

[Crustaceon]

What’s messed up is you’re advertising a product to fix a problem that it’ll most likely aggravate instead. In a worst case scenario, this could take a tank with low nutrients on the verge of crashing to a full-on crash event if it’s dosed in order to treat dinos. I would never sell a product to a fellow reefer if it didn’t do what was advertised to do and especially not if incorrect use would cause that person to lose all of their livestock (coral at the very least) and even worse, discourage them to the point of leaving the hobby. My advice will always be sound and will always be free.

 

[MrTang13]

What’s messed up is you’re advertising a product to fix a problem that it’ll most likely aggravate instead. In a worst case scenario, this could take a tank with low nutrients on the verge of crashing to a full-on crash event if it’s dosed in order to treat dinos. I would never sell a product to a fellow reefer if it didn’t do what was advertised to do and especially not if incorrect use would cause that person to lose all of their livestock (coral at the very least) and even worse, discourage them to the point of leaving the hobby. My advice will always be sound and will always be free.

NoPoX is advertised as algae management. Dinos, by definition, are algae.

 

[MrTang13]

MrTang13...you mentioned on your other thread that after dosing several bottles of DinoX, you claimed that it eradicated dinos from your tank...so I guess it was only temporary?? Now you’re trying a new product and are claiming that it once again works? I see a pattern here [emoji3166]

How much money/credit do you get for every traffic that you send over to the redsea website? Since the link thats on your original post seems to work as a referral?

Red Sea is a credible company and does not shill the forums. We respect the community.

Why are you upset with URL parameters?

 

[Crustaceon]

NoPoX is advertised as algae management. Dinos, by definition, are algae.

As we all know, not all algae is the same and treated in an identical manner.

 

[Dhoggs]

Red Sea is a credible company and does not shill the forums. We respect the community.

Why are you upset with URL parameters?

Not upset at all...just curios as to the purpose of the threads that you created regarding eradicating Dinos.

My guess so far..... to shill the forums.

 

[sde1500]

The hundred posts you made about DinoX curing your tank, those weren’t true then? All those posts, completely ignoring anyone asking for a picture or if you’ve looked at it under a microscope. Being sure to mention all you’ve spent, no pictures still, now how you interact with people here. Feels like you’re just trolling.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

Not to get in the way of the argument, but...

I have used AlgaeFix with a 2-3 day blackout (just to put the final nail in the coffin) numerous times on numerous reefs. Works every time.

Doesn’t seem to have the slightest impact on any corals. One tank has several wild Acros and some nice Montis, and they didn’t even notice. Truth be told, I was a little nervous on that one. But didn’t impact anything.

 

[MrTang13]

Red Sea is a credible company and does not shill the forums. We respect the community.

Why are you upset with URL parameters?

Sure, but his point was I am promoting a product in a use that it is not intended for, which is demonstrably false.

 

[Crashjack]

I've thought about trying an experiment but from a different angle than where the OP is coming from. I'm probably the luckiest reefer around... I have healthy doses of dinos, aiptasia, and now bryopsis. After about a 15 year hiatus from the hobby, I got back in about 1.5 years ago. Even though hair algae, cyano, etc. had never been much of an issue in my tanks in the past, I outsmarted myself and started with all dry rock (Pukani) this go-round. Well, about 5 months in, I ran into my first infestation of dinos and after finally getting rid of them, I stupidly allowed them to come back.

Most of us who suffer from dinos do so in low nutrient environments, which are often the result of starting tanks with all dry rock. We know that raising nutrients + repetitive dino removal is the basis for the cure, which might also be enhanced by UV, hydrogen peroxide, Miracle Mud, and any number of things folks claim that help. We also believe that dinos occur less frequently in systems started with live rock. It seems a lot of folks believe that bacteria associated with live rock might be at least part of the answer, which makes sense since our dry rock starts with little bacteria (at least when compared to live rock). Since dry rock is "dead", one could conclude that most of the bacteria growing in a dry rock tank has to be introduced from the air, out of a bottle, or from the addition of livestock. It is also likely (at least plausible) that under these conditions, certain bacteria strains might overpopulate and/or out-compete other strains that might get introduced in small quantities if at all.

Back to dosing carbon, I have to wonder if dosing carbon AND dosing nitrate/phosphate might promote a greater variety of bacteria, while also elevating nutrients. My hypothesis is, we get so hung-up on dosing carbon to reduce nitrate/phosphate, we forget about the bacteria it enables to grow. If NoPox is really a blend of carbon sources that would help promote a greater variety of bacteria (I'm not saying that it is), and one wants to grow a greater variety of bacteria while also elevating nutrients, NoPox could be the ticket. Anyway, I've thought about experimenting with this to see if it has any effect on my dinos and wondered what others thought or if anybody had tried dosing carbon while elevating nutrients to combat dinos?

 

[MrTang13]

I've thought about trying an experiment but from a different angle than where the OP is coming from. I'm probably the luckiest reefer around... I have healthy doses of dinos, aiptasia, and now bryopsis. After about a 15 year hiatus from the hobby, I got back in about 1.5 years ago. Even though hair algae, cyano, etc. had never been much of an issue in my tanks in the past, I outsmarted myself and started with all dry rock (Pukani) this go-round. Well, about 5 months in, I ran into my first infestation of dinos and after finally getting rid of them, I stupidly allowed them to come back.

Most of us who suffer from dinos do so in low nutrient environments, which are often the result of starting tanks with all dry rock. We know that raising nutrients + repetitive dino removal is the basis for the cure, which might also be enhanced by UV, hydrogen peroxide, Miracle Mud, and any number of things folks claim that help. We also believe that dinos occur less frequently in systems started with live rock. It seems a lot of folks believe that bacteria associated with live rock might be at least part of the answer, which makes sense since our dry rock starts with little bacteria (at least when compared to live rock). Since dry rock is "dead", one could conclude that most of the bacteria growing in a dry rock tank has to be introduced from the air, out of a bottle, or from the addition of livestock. It is also likely (at least plausible) that under these conditions, certain bacteria strains might overpopulate and/or out-compete other strains that might get introduced in small quantities if at all.

Back to dosing carbon, I have to wonder if dosing carbon AND dosing nitrate/phosphate might promote a greater variety of bacteria, while also elevating nutrients. My hypothesis is, we get so hung-up on dosing carbon to reduce nitrate/phosphate, we forget about the bacteria it enables to grow. If NoPox is really a blend of carbon sources that would help promote a greater variety of bacteria (I'm not saying that it is), and one wants to grow a greater variety of bacteria while also elevating nutrients, NoPox could be the ticket. Anyway, I've thought about experimenting with this to see if it has any effect on my dinos and wondered what others thought or if anybody had tried dosing carbon while elevating nutrients to combat dinos?

Thanks brother for your insightful and deductive reasoning.

I wish you the best of luck.

My Dino problem is different after dosing Dino X and much less severe. Now the Dino’s only grow on the glass and much slower. They also don’t produce those oxygen bubbles.

Since I dosed the NoPox yesterday, they were eradicated despite again a full life cycle. I’m also installing a oversized 25 Watt pentair U.V. sterilizer tomorrow.

At this point, these are just extra precautions.

 

[Crustaceon]

I've thought about trying an experiment but from a different angle than where the OP is coming from. I'm probably the luckiest reefer around... I have healthy doses of dinos, aiptasia, and now bryopsis. After about a 15 year hiatus from the hobby, I got back in about 1.5 years ago. Even though hair algae, cyano, etc. had never been much of an issue in my tanks in the past, I outsmarted myself and started with all dry rock (Pukani) this go-round. Well, about 5 months in, I ran into my first infestation of dinos and after finally getting rid of them, I stupidly allowed them to come back.

Most of us who suffer from dinos do so in low nutrient environments, which are often the result of starting tanks with all dry rock. We know that raising nutrients + repetitive dino removal is the basis for the cure, which might also be enhanced by UV, hydrogen peroxide, Miracle Mud, and any number of things folks claim that help. We also believe that dinos occur less frequently in systems started with live rock. It seems a lot of folks believe that bacteria associated with live rock might be at least part of the answer, which makes sense since our dry rock starts with little bacteria (at least when compared to live rock). Since dry rock is "dead", one could conclude that most of the bacteria growing in a dry rock tank has to be introduced from the air, out of a bottle, or from the addition of livestock. It is also likely (at least plausible) that under these conditions, certain bacteria strains might overpopulate and/or out-compete other strains that might get introduced in small quantities if at all.

Back to dosing carbon, I have to wonder if dosing carbon AND dosing nitrate/phosphate might promote a greater variety of bacteria, while also elevating nutrients. My hypothesis is, we get so hung-up on dosing carbon to reduce nitrate/phosphate, we forget about the bacteria it enables to grow. If NoPox is really a blend of carbon sources that would help promote a greater variety of bacteria (I'm not saying that it is), and one wants to grow a greater variety of bacteria while also elevating nutrients, NoPox could be the ticket. Anyway, I've thought about experimenting with this to see if it has any effect on my dinos and wondered what others thought or if anybody had tried dosing carbon while elevating nutrients to combat dinos?

I just mentioned something similar in dealing with cyano:

Give the scrubber, bacteria and Po4 levels time to increase. Sometimes it takes weeks before that balance starts to be realized. The idea is to really have other things thriving more than the bad stuff. Typically this is beneficial bacteria instead of cyanobacteria. BUT...I do have a theory that maybe others here can contemplate and comment on: Theoretically, this process can probably be accelerated by blacking out the tank for 2-3 days to suppress the cyano as it’s partly photosynthetic, adding a small amount of phosphate (Flourish Phosphorus or similar -.05ppm worth) to better match up with your nitrate level, add a carbon source such as 1ml of vodka or equivalent ratio of vinegar and a bottle of beneficial bacteria such as seachem pristine or stability. This will cause a bacterial bloom of the beneficial stuff and definitely spur more algae growth on the scrubber, all while the tank is blacked out and the cyano has no chance to compete. This will most likely lightly cloud the tank, cause a few ppm drop in nitrates but shouldn’t cause an oxygenation issue in the tank if a skimmer is ran during the process. This plan would be very easy on everything in the tank but cyano buy using the Redfield ratio against it.