The Immeriate Cure for Dinoflagellates

[landlubber]

@MrTang13 source:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/p...-and-ph-article-question.560836/#post-5752073
it appears my findings were supported by a prominent reef chemist. did you know he's a Harvard grad?
#knowledgeispower

 

[MrTang13]

@MrTang13 source:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/p...-and-ph-article-question.560836/#post-5752073
it appears my findings were supported by a prominent reef chemist. did you know he's a Harvard grad?
#knowledgeispower

What is your source that he is a Harvard grad?

 

[landlubber]

What is your source that he is a Harvard grad?

https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/person.asp?personId=325347422&privcapId=38652417&previousCapId=3170648&previousTitle=Trinity Biosystems, Inc.
did you know he also holds a BA from Cornell as well?

 

[Dhoggs]

What is your source that he is a Harvard grad?

Have you already forgotten??? You also mentioned that Randy is Harvard educated in your previous post (#20)

 

[MrTang13]

Have you already forgotten??? You also mentioned that Randy is Harvard educated in your previous post (#20)

I made that up.

 

[wesman42]

You literally posted a Red Sea referral link. This is advertising. A referral that applies back to your user if someone orders off of it.

 

[MrTang13]

You literally posted a Red Sea referral link. This is advertising.

What is wrong with wanting to help some webmaster in Israel better identify the source of incoming traffic?

 

[MrTang13]

You literally posted a Red Sea referral link. This is advertising. A referral that applies back to your user if someone orders off of it.

Also, did you see a picture of my Sump.

That is a Red Sea Deluxe Reefer 250. In it, lives a Red Sea 8 line wrasse, I kid you not.

 

[wesman42]

Also, did you see a picture of my Sump.

That is a Red Sea Deluxe Reefer 250. In it, lives a Red Sea 8 line wrasse, I kid you not.

You can't bury that this is in fact, a Red Sea referral link back to your user.

 

[MrTang13]

You can't bury that this is in fact, a Red Sea referral link back to your user.

But what good is a referral link if there’s no checkout or webform to capture parameters?

I am not a Red Sea advertiser. I a mere supporter of their superior products.

To all listening, Red Sea is certified Reef Spec. Other manufacturers can’t say that.

 

[saltyhog]

The last time I read something on the forum by Dr RHF he preferred vinegar dosing to NoPOx. The article you posted was from 2006 was it not? I would love for Randy to speak on the subject.

Don't be so quick to discount a huge amount of anecdotal evidence that low nutrients (especially phosphate) create a competitive advantage for dinos. Raising nutrients is not the ultimate goal but a means to encourage other types of algae and microfauna to compete with dinos. Dosing silicate has actually been found by some to be helpful in fighting them.

 

[MrTang13]

The last time I read something on the forum by Dr RHF he preferred vinegar dosing to NoPOx. The article you posted was from 2006 was it not? I would love for Randy to speak on the subject.

Don't be so quick to discount a huge amount of anecdotal evidence that low nutrients (especially phosphate) create a competitive advantage for dinos. Raising nutrients is not the ultimate goal but a means to encourage other types of algae and microfauna to compete with dinos. Dosing silicate has actually been found by some to be helpful in fighting them.

Vinegar is not Reef Spec. Neil Marks would disagree.

 

[saltyhog]

What does "Reef Spec." mean? Vinegar dosing is/has been used by Dr Farley. That is a fact easily confirmed with a search of his posts here. You chose to use him as supporting your claims.

Can you post a picture of a microscopic view of your dinos?

I eliminated my dinos literally "overnight" with addition of UV....that doesn't mean it's the answer for every species of dinos.

 

[Crustaceon]

I've thought about trying an experiment but from a different angle than where the OP is coming from. I'm probably the luckiest reefer around... I have healthy doses of dinos, aiptasia, and now bryopsis. After about a 15 year hiatus from the hobby, I got back in about 1.5 years ago. Even though hair algae, cyano, etc. had never been much of an issue in my tanks in the past, I outsmarted myself and started with all dry rock (Pukani) this go-round. Well, about 5 months in, I ran into my first infestation of dinos and after finally getting rid of them, I stupidly allowed them to come back.

Most of us who suffer from dinos do so in low nutrient environments, which are often the result of starting tanks with all dry rock. We know that raising nutrients + repetitive dino removal is the basis for the cure, which might also be enhanced by UV, hydrogen peroxide, Miracle Mud, and any number of things folks claim that help. We also believe that dinos occur less frequently in systems started with live rock. It seems a lot of folks believe that bacteria associated with live rock might be at least part of the answer, which makes sense since our dry rock starts with little bacteria (at least when compared to live rock). Since dry rock is "dead", one could conclude that most of the bacteria growing in a dry rock tank has to be introduced from the air, out of a bottle, or from the addition of livestock. It is also likely (at least plausible) that under these conditions, certain bacteria strains might overpopulate and/or out-compete other strains that might get introduced in small quantities if at all.

Back to dosing carbon, I have to wonder if dosing carbon AND dosing nitrate/phosphate might promote a greater variety of bacteria, while also elevating nutrients. My hypothesis is, we get so hung-up on dosing carbon to reduce nitrate/phosphate, we forget about the bacteria it enables to grow. If NoPox is really a blend of carbon sources that would help promote a greater variety of bacteria (I'm not saying that it is), and one wants to grow a greater variety of bacteria while also elevating nutrients, NoPox could be the ticket. Anyway, I've thought about experimenting with this to see if it has any effect on my dinos and wondered what others thought or if anybody had tried dosing carbon while elevating nutrients to combat dinos?

The problem though is if you dose a carbon source like NoPox and use a protein skimmer, it will reduce your nitrates & phosphates. The only time you’ll get an increase in nutrients while carbon dosing is once either nitrates or phosphates peg at zero and bacteria simply can’t consume the nutrient with the higher quantity until the nutrient with the non-existent quantity increases. This is why it’s possible to carbon dose like crazy and still have nitrates increase. As for having a greater diversity of bacteria, this is easily possible if dosing is done within a reasonable range of nitrate and phosphate. The problem arises with too much dosing or when it’s done at low nutrient levels. Once that balance has been thrown off and nitrates or phosphates hit zero, typically caused by overusing vodka or NoPox, strains of bacteria like cyano or tougher algaes like dinos can exist where other bacterium and algae cannot.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Following this conversation

 

[SPR1968]

What does "Reef Spec." mean? Vinegar dosing is/has been used by Dr Farley. That is a fact easily confirmed with a search of his posts here. You chose to use him as supporting your claims.

Can you post a picture of a microscopic view of your dinos?

I eliminated my dinos literally "overnight" with addition of UV....that doesn't mean it's the answer for every species of dinos.

I believe ‘Reef Spec’ is the term Red Sea use when referring to things and products they use and sell. For example I use their ‘Reef Spec’ light settings and the various reef programs, Nopox etc.

So by this definition I would say ‘vinager’ doesn’t fall into that, Red Seas, definition, although it can of course be used as a carbon dosing source.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

last i know many company lurk and not post and sometimes post under normal users. I have many that came out of the dark in my study for bacteria.
Secondly from all the studies i have seen NONE recommend to keep Nitrates and Phos at 0 for fixing dino issues.
If that was the case i would have never gotten them as I use sulfur denitrator for last 15 yrs and nitrates absolute 0 and for phos i use Lanthanum chloride which also keeps phos at 0. I had a farm and i tried hydrogen peroxide dosing. NOPOX and many other remedies until i increased the nitrates by dosing sodium nitrate and less LC for phos to grow. then i was able to battle the dinos off.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

last i know many company lurk and not post and sometimes post under normal users. I have many that came out of the dark in my study for bacteria.
Secondly from all the studies i have seen NONE recommend to keep Nitrates and Phos at 0 for fixing dino issues.
If that was the case i would have never gotten them as I use sulfur denitrator for last 15 yrs and nitrates absolute 0 and for phos i use Lanthanum chloride which also keeps phos at 0. I had a farm and i tried hydrogen peroxide dosing. NOPOX and many other remedies until i increased the nitrates by dosing sodium nitrate and less LC for phos to grow. then i was able to battle the dinos off.

Right. That's consistent with everything I've read and seen too. The goal is to keep nutrients at manageable consistent levels. Not to eradicate them.

 

[biophilia]

Broadly speaking, dinoflagellates take hold in environments with declining nutrients that limit the growth of other, faster-growing algae species that might otherwise take hold first. This is something that is taught in basic oceonagraphy courses. See: https://courses.washington.edu/ocean101/Lex/Lecture27+.pdf

Also, keep in mind:

1. The symbionts that live within coral tissue and supply them with carbohydrates and fats are dinoflagellates, so searching for a product that "destroys dinoflagellates" is probably not going to get you where you want to be if your goal is to grow healthy coral.

2. Aggressive carbon dosing (NoPOX/whatever) to the point that it strips the water column of nitrate entirely may indeed halt problematic dinoflagellate growth by making NO3 the limiting nutrient in the tank, but it's also going to starve your corals unless you feed them a ton of food in addition. Zooxanthellae only produces enough nitrogen (via amino acids) to satisfy basic metabolic needs at best so corals need to be able to get it as either NO3 in the water column or via food capture if they want to actually grow.

It's much easier to out-compete them with other algae species and let herbivores in the tank take care of the rest than to try to endlessly fight them via starvation IMO...

 

[Guttersnipe]

If you can’t show me a tank with thriving corals then you lose all credibility with your science.