The Mindstream is DEAD!! I'm getting mine soon!

[lexinverts]

Looks like GHL will get my business instead

I thought about the costs versus goning completely with GHL too, as I am a GHL user. The KH director + plus required dosing pumps is $859, and that measures just KH. GHL is developing the ION director, which will measure Calcium and Mag and that will also need 2-3 pumps. I imagine that the cost of this will be about $859 as well. So, we are looking at about $1700 to measure 3 parameters. That's not cheap, and is about the cost of the Mindstream for purchase and 2 years of use. With GHL, you would have to purchase a controller to also monitor salinity and pH, etc... like the Mindstream, which is another $500+

To be fair, the reagent costs and the maintenance costs to keep the GHL units running and calibrated will very likely be less than $35 per month, so going with them could be cheaper in the long run. (Not to be discounted is the likely greater user labor to maintain the GHL units and set them up, whatever that is worth to each of us.) And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users. GHL also has a good reputation for quality and is not going out of business anytime soon. These are all good things to consider, but IMHO saving money over the first year or two of use is not likely to be an advantage to going with GHL.

 

[Snookin]

I thought about the costs versus goning completely with GHL too, as I am a GHL user. The KH director + plus required dosing pumps is $859, and that measures just KH. GHL is developing the ION director, which will measure Calcium and Mag and that will also need 2-3 pumps. I imagine that the cost of this will be about $859 as well. So, we are looking at about $1700 to measure 3 parameters. That's not cheap, and is about the cost of the Mindstream for purchase and 2 years of use. With GHL, you would have to purchase a controller to also monitor salinity and pH, etc... like the Mindstream, which is another $500+

To be fair, the reagent costs and the maintenance costs to keep the GHL units running and calibrated will very likely be less than $35 per month, so going with them could be cheaper in the long run. (Not to be discounted is the likely greater user labor to maintain the GHL units and set them up, whatever that is worth to each of us.) And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users. GHL also has a good reputation for quality and is not going out of business anytime soon. These are all good things to consider, but IMHO saving money over the first year or two of use is not likely to be an advantage to going with GHL.

I think you are getting caught up in just the testing aspect of the GHL vs Mindstream. GHL offers so much more value in terms of control and dosing options. Mindstream is just a testing device. GHL and Apex for that matter are far more than just as parameters testing devices.

 

[lexinverts]

I think you are getting caught up in just the testing aspect of the GHL vs Mindstream. GHL offers so much more value in terms of control and dosing options. Mindstream is just a testing device. GHL and Apex for that matter are far more than just as parameters testing devices.

No, I mentioned this in my post: "And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users."
If Mindstream develops the ability to pair with a dosing pump, then you'll have that too. As I said in my post, these are all factors worth considering.

 

[Snookin]

No, I mentioned this in my post: "And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users."
If Mindstream develops the ability to pair with a dosing pump, then you'll have that too. As I said in my post, these are all factors worth considering.

You still aren’t really getting my point. GHL and APEX can control a lot more than just parameters via a dosing pump. They have more value above and beyond that.

 

[leepink23]

I thought about the costs versus goning completely with GHL too, as I am a GHL user. The KH director + plus required dosing pumps is $859, and that measures just KH. GHL is developing the ION director, which will measure Calcium and Mag and that will also need 2-3 pumps. I imagine that the cost of this will be about $859 as well. So, we are looking at about $1700 to measure 3 parameters. That's not cheap, and is about the cost of the Mindstream for purchase and 2 years of use. With GHL, you would have to purchase a controller to also monitor salinity and pH, etc... like the Mindstream, which is another $500+

To be fair, the reagent costs and the maintenance costs to keep the GHL units running and calibrated will very likely be less than $35 per month, so going with them could be cheaper in the long run. (Not to be discounted is the likely greater user labor to maintain the GHL units and set them up, whatever that is worth to each of us.) And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users. GHL also has a good reputation for quality and is not going out of business anytime soon. These are all good things to consider, but IMHO saving money over the first year or two of use is not likely to be an advantage to going with GHL.

I saw where you can get %15 off all ghl right now
https://www.buckeyereef.com/forums/...-ultimate-group-buy-for-buckeye-reef-members/
Not trying to side track this thread, rather just fyi.

 

[Potatohead]

I thought about the costs versus goning completely with GHL too, as I am a GHL user. The KH director + plus required dosing pumps is $859, and that measures just KH. GHL is developing the ION director, which will measure Calcium and Mag and that will also need 2-3 pumps. I imagine that the cost of this will be about $859 as well. So, we are looking at about $1700 to measure 3 parameters. That's not cheap, and is about the cost of the Mindstream for purchase and 2 years of use. With GHL, you would have to purchase a controller to also monitor salinity and pH, etc... like the Mindstream, which is another $500+

To be fair, the reagent costs and the maintenance costs to keep the GHL units running and calibrated will very likely be less than $35 per month, so going with them could be cheaper in the long run. (Not to be discounted is the likely greater user labor to maintain the GHL units and set them up, whatever that is worth to each of us.) And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users. GHL also has a good reputation for quality and is not going out of business anytime soon. These are all good things to consider, but IMHO saving money over the first year or two of use is not likely to be an advantage to going with GHL.

Personally there's no way I'm spending $1000 + $35 per month, and hoping my discs arrive on time and/or the thing doesn't crash and/or the company remains in business. Monthly fees for things like this really turn me off, I just want to pay up front and be done with it. If I had to buy discs say in three packs even that is a lot better, but I don't want to rely on other people sending them to me. If I want to buy a six to twelve month supply, I want to be able to do that.

With GHL I know what I am getting.

 

[lexinverts]

You still aren’t really getting my point. GHL and APEX can control a lot more than just parameters via a dosing pump. They have more value above and beyond that.

I am getting your point. It just isn't an easy apples to apples comparison, and maybe my point about costs isn't worth trying to make.

The prices that I quoted for GHL are for measuring and controlling 3 parameters and are about $1700 + the cost of reagents. The KH and ION directors do not need a Profilux controller to monitor and control those parameters. To do all of the other control stuff you are referring to you need to also get a Profilux 4 controller and that is another $500-900 with probes, etc... Now we are talking $2500-ish.

The Mindstream cannot control but it can monitor many more parameters. (It may have control function in the future, but who knows?). With GHL, to monitor and CONTROL something approaching the number of parameters as the Mindstream monitors (+ the other control features that mention) you would need to spend quite a bit more. For some users the control option with GHL will seem like a much better deal, but it is not inexpensive by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[lexinverts]

With GHL I know what I am getting.

Absolutely. My biggest concern with Mindstream is that they will not end up being profitable and will disappear.

 

[Potatohead]

The Ion Director will also measure nitrate, and most likely phosphate, which the Mindstream will not do.

 

[DangerDave]

Without reagent, all of the the testing devices are “bricked”. They’re effectively useless without them. I have a $500 KH Guardian monitor that tests one parameter. I have a $750 reefbot that can test a few parameters. I will pay $1k for a device to test 10 parameters. My time is valuable to me, between work and a large family these devices to automate tasks and testing have allowed me to have a complex reef system with short time available.

That said, I will sit back and see how it goes at first. I really hope it’s accurate and reliable.

Dave

 

[lexinverts]

The Ion Director will also measure nitrate, and most likely phosphate, which the Mindstream will not do.

If the ION director measured nitrate, it would be more worth it to me. I'm not sure that it is a given it will measure nitrate. What I read was Ca and Mag for sure and maybe some others.

 

[roberthu526]

Seeing this kind of discussion makes me think what's wrong with manual water testing... I test ALK every other day and calcium once every four days, nitrate and phosphate once a week. It doesn't take that much time and it's actually a fun way of learning the tank...
Some times technology pushes us away from the hobby I think.

 

[Potatohead]

If the ION director measured nitrate, it would be more worth it to me. I'm not sure that it is a given it will measure nitrate. What I read was Ca and Mag for sure and maybe some others.

Based on the thread linked below, nitrate is 99% a given. Phosphate is also possible but it may be delayed a little while and then a software update will allow it, I guess they need more time to perfect it. The last parameter is still up in the air.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ion-director-what-other-values-would-you-like-to-measure.574280/

 

[Potatohead]

Seeing this kind of discussion makes me think what's wrong with manual water testing... I test ALK every other day and calcium once every four days, nitrate and phosphate once a week. It doesn't take that much time and it's actually a fun way of learning the tank...
Some times technology pushes us away from the hobby I think.

I do this too and honestly even if everything was automated, I probably would still do it just to ensure everything was functioning ok. It's more about stability and really knowing how your tank operates than it is about saving twenty minutes a week, at least for me.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

So are we going to have to buy the device and then pay for a subscription as well?

 

[Opus]

So are we going to have to buy the device and then pay for a subscription as well?

Yes. $1000 and then $35 per month. Maybe less if they offer some kind of deal for a 3 month or 6 month subscription. I wonder how reliable their cloud service is?

 

[Opus]

Absolutely. My biggest concern with Mindstream is that they will not end up being profitable and will disappear.

Or they could be bought out and the new owner jacks the prices up because they want to recoup their costs quicker. Or it could be like a product I bought a few years ago that relied on a cloud based service. The company that bought them out just wanted the patents put not the actual product I was using. Got an email stating my product would work until this date and then would be useless because they were shutting down the cloud service.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Yes. $1000 and then $35 per month. Maybe less if they offer some kind of deal for a 3 month or 6 month subscription. I wonder how reliable their cloud service is?

Seriously?! What a joke if i pay that kind of money for something i shouldnt be charged to use it.... lol ill stick to the old fashioned way.

 

[K7BMG]

Without reagent, all of the the testing devices are “bricked”. They’re effectively useless without them. I have a $500 KH Guardian monitor that tests one parameter. I have a $750 reefbot that can test a few parameters. I will pay $1k for a device to test 10 parameters. My time is valuable to me, between work and a large family these devices to automate tasks and testing have allowed me to have a complex reef system with short time available.

That said, I will sit back and see how it goes at first. I really hope it’s accurate and reliable.

Dave

Respectfully I have to disagree.
Reagents are chemicals that can be obtained from many places.
The convenience of buying Hanna or API and the like are not in anyway a subscription.
The equipment will still function using other reagents.

But anyway I like the way the tech is moving forward in this industry.
I don't know if Mindstream will wind up the top dog, and the equipment to have over everything else.
For me at the current cost of $1,000.00, my gut and common sense tells me to wait and see.
Let the initial pioneers do the testing and I will consider purchasing way down the road.

Out of the 10 things Mindstream will test for in my opinion are thirdly redundant to what we already have in use for the most part.

Salinity, Temperature, pH**, Ammonia.
I don't know if Ammonia is even needed for established systems.
We will know what the salinity is when we mix and perform water changes.
Temp well I currently have three ways to read that now.
PH, well anymore once its stable then aside from double checking now and again its not as much of a concern anymore.
Oxygen, Potassium, well ok I guess this is on the list but truly something we need to monitor?
Carbon Dioxide? Same do we need to know?

The big three is the key. Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium, and what most of us want to know.

 

[Hemmdog]

The potassium testing intrigues me. Not $1000 intrigued though. Manual potassium testing is NOT enjoyable.