The ultimate reef light! POLL!

[reeferfoxx]

I hate these redundant threads but I'll play along and stir the pot. LEDs only all the way!

 

[Greybeard]

I'm expecting that one day, this argument will be moot, and LED will have won the war. They have certainly won many of the battles lately... BUT. If you include initial costs in your comparison, T5's beat them hands down. There isn't a coral I know of that you can't grow under T5's, and you can light a large tank at a reasonable cost. Low end LED's just don't work like the high end ones do, and high end LED's initial cost for a 4, 5, or 6 foot tank are seriously over priced. I lit my new tank with an 8 bulb T5 unit... for about $350. If I'd have gone with, for instance, AI Hydra 52's, I'd have topped $1,800 in my initial lighting costs.

T5/LED hybrids are a stop-gap measure... for people who like the shimmer of LED's (or halides), and want the coral growth and coloration that the broad, even, diffuse light that T5's can produce. Eventually, somebody will figure out how to get that broad, diffuse light out of an LED, and nobody will want T5's anymore. They're not there yet, and the closest they've gotten so far is way too high priced for many of us to consider.

 

[reeferfoxx]

If you include initial costs in your comparison, T5's beat them hands down.

Replacing bulbs every 6 months adds up doesn't it?

Low end LED's just don't work like the high end ones do,

High end leds have a spectrum advantage over low ends but I've yet to see a mars aqua fixture not meet a corals need.

 

[Greybeard]

Replacing bulbs every 6 months adds up doesn't it?

High end leds have a spectrum advantage over low ends but I've yet to see a mars aqua fixture not meet a corals need.

I could replace my eight $20 bulbs every six months for five years before I'd make up a $1500 initial purchase price difference, and who's to say that the LED is going to last 5 years? Even the high end LED's only have a 1 year warranty, right? Ballast, socket, whatever, goes out in my T5 fixture? No big deal, it's easy, and reasonably inexpensive, to fix. Is that true of a failure in a high end LED?

Photons are photons... I get it, but the 'Disco Ball' effect of the cheaper LED's isn't something that I'm willing to accept. Will they grow corals? Sure. Will those corals be as healthy, as colorful, and grow as fast as a high end LED (or T5, or halide)? Nope. If they were, nobody would be buying high end LED's! Well, I suppose some folks still would... gotta have the latest, greatest, just can't live without a periodic lightning storm

Look... lighting comes in at 3rd place, as far as I'm concerned. Water quality and flow patterns rate higher on my list of concerns for a healthy reef than lighting does. It's an essential component, but not the end all that some folks seem to think it is. You like LED's? Fine. I do too... I just don't think they're cost justified yet. I have no doubt, in a few years, we'll see LED's at reasonable price levels that meet or exceed the output of an EcoTech Radion today. We're simply not there yet. I've run Halides on several tanks over the last couple of decades. As far as I'm concerned, they're impossible to beat, strictly from a light quality standpoint. Unfortunately, they have several strikes against them... heat, being the one that I'm unwilling to deal with anymore. T5's give excellent light quality, at a reasonable price point, and without the dramatic heat problems. LED's? The only knocks I've got against high end LED's is (A) they're still a bit concentrated, just not as diffuse as I like, and (B) they're too darned expensive. I expect both of these issues to disappear in time.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Look... lighting comes in at 3rd place, as far as I'm concerned. Water quality and flow patterns rate higher on my list of concerns for a healthy reef than lighting does.

I think this is the only thing I can agree with. The rest of it would have made a sound argument 3 or 4 years ago. The internet has a wealth of knowledge. We just need to take the time to research what we preach. For instance, thinking a cluster puck LED design is more efficient or provides any lighting advantage over LED panels and justifies the cost is absurd. We complain about "disco" or spread or spectrum. Yet some still think a $800 LED fixture is worth the cost but later on retrofits T5 to compensate. Orphek has made huge strides in proving the naysayers wrong. Kessil proved the Ap700 LED is equivalent to MH. And Ebay sells a plethora of lens replacements for cheaper LEDs to enhance lighting with reduction of "disco". Speaking of disco, check out the ecotech Gen 3 videos on youtube. The Gen 4 mostly fixed that problem. T5's work but so do LEDs.

 

[pelphrey]

I am part of the new generation that has actually never seen a T5 tank. So I had to give it a try.

 

[Gwitness]

What about this unit?!

 

[reeferfoxx]

What about this unit?!

It'll grow stuff

 

[Peng]

Replacing bulbs every 6 months adds up doesn't it?

High end leds have a spectrum advantage over low ends but I've yet to see a mars aqua fixture not meet a corals need.

Yup still cheaper and better color than LED.

On my tank for example I had 2 options when I was building it:

72x30x24, all acropora

I could go with ATI sunpower or Radion.

I would need 1 60" 8bulb T5 or 4 - 5 radions to get the light distribution and coverage and minimize shadowing.
I went with T5 because it was plug and play and it guaranteed good colors.
So my break down would be:
8 bulbs - $180
fixture - $711
Total for 1st year - $900

If I went with 4 radions - to be honest I might go with 5 to have a better spread
fixture - $3200
ReefLink - $100
Total for 1st year - $3300 + $ on mounting units if needed

Now wattage:

T5 - 80w * 8 -> 640w
LED - 190w * 4 * 70% = 532w

So as it turns out LED doesn't really have that big magical power saving edge that many hype about.

Bulbs for T5 each year -> $180
3200 - 900 -> $2300 so the money saved by going with T5 will give 13 years of bulb supply. I change mine every 10 months so the # would be 10 years. If you change your bulbs every 6 months then it's another more than six years of bulb supply. Typically people use their LED for 4 - 5 years before upgrade.

When I was making the choice, Radion G4 wasn't even out yet so my option would be G3. Now looking at EchTech's own comparison between their G3 and G4 especially looking at that PAR distribution graph on G3 compared with T5 I laughed so hard LOL So glad I went with T5.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I could go with ATI sunpower or Radion.

Not trying to sound rude, but this is a ridiculous comparison.

Again, we are comparing cluster puck designs with T5. Why?

Yes it's not cost effective. But if you had considered a chinese black box which is a panel design similar to Orpheks panels, it's very cheap, loads of spread and plenty of PAR.

 

[Peng]

Not ridiculous at all. I have some very demanding species and I want the best colors. So naturally Radion comes on top in LED fixtures and ATI in T5. I don't care if you are clustered or not. You are in this market people won't give you a pass or special treatment just because it's clustered. Frankly what I care about the most is color and spread. Both T5 and Radion G4 stand out as some of the top choices in this category so of course it's fair to compare them.

 

[DSC reef]

MH/T5 all the way. I'm sorry but replacing T5 bulbs every 6 months is a little ridiculous and unnecessary IMO. 12 to 14 months and never had an issue or algae problems.

 

[reeferfoxx]

So naturally Radion comes on top in LED fixtures

This is a subjective statement. Lets say we are talking about SPS only or SPS dominant tanks. Experience teaches us that SPS coral, like acros, don't do well with direct or focused lighting. They need a more broad spread to reduce shadowing so that the undersides don't die. A small puck design does nothing but emit light from a small 4inch diameter and with the help of lenses can spread roughly to 30 inch diameter. However, your focused light isn't going to spread on either sides of one SPS coral. Thus, requiring us to have multiple fixtures. But if we could each understand that this type of lighting isn't right for SPS, then our more obvious choice other than T5 is panel LEDs. Panels can range in length and width. They can also be more efficient by reducing the brightness at the same time reducing energy costs. They con provide plenty of light penetration and added contrast to your rocks for a more dramatic view. You also don't experience the shadowing like pendants or pucks.

As far as I'm concerned, cluster pucks are glorified LPS growers given limited number of fixtures. Panel LEDs are more specific to SPS growth. Pendants, again just more focused light for LPS tanks.

 

[DSC reef]

I've seen many high end coral colonies do just fine under "puck" only led fixtures so saying there good just for LPS is a subjective statement as well.......

 

[reeferfoxx]

I've seen many high end coral colonies do just fine under "puck" only led fixtures so saying there good just for LPS is a subjective statement as well.......

Given limited number of fixtures. It's really not that subjective.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I think you'll find stunning examples of captive reef aquaria lit by any one of the technologies you mentioned (except for maybe CFL). Each one has pros and cons. The question is really which pros or cons are most important to you?

Personally, I absolutely love metal halides. If it weren't for the heat (and the chiller that's potentially required to mitigate that heat [and the additional power to run both the chiller and the lights]), I would absolutely choose metal halides.

In the real world, I go with pure LEDs or T5s, no hybrids. Hybrids offer more benefits, but I personally don't like the complexity.

 

[Biglurr54]

I went with mh 14k and led actinic/hyper violet. The old coral cooker will grow anything. My 525xl build is going to have three 150w m80 halides and 36 Phillips Luxeon rb and 12 semi led uv. Change the 14k bulbs once a year and I will grow anything anywhere.

 

[shred5]

MH/T5 hands down

With out a doubt but I would not run it.
I would also never run led by itself unless just softies, it is the worst.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Lol

 

[3mm3]

With out a doubt but I would not run it.
I would also never run led by itself unless just softies, it is the worst.

Why would you not run it?