Theory on nutrient ratios and algae/bacteria

[XNavyDiver]

Lol. Nobody wants to belive me about the Fiji mud. Or Garf.

Also my bristle won't population crashed like a year ago. No real impact that I've noted.

I do. Ive done the Grunge thing twice now. Good stuff.

 

[Lasse]

Are you saying they added nitrate? or limited nitrate from the wastewater?

In 1986 there was studies that show that saltwater was nitrogen limited. The Baltic is brackish and all Cities from Stockholm and southward was ordered to install equipment that took away not only phosphorus but also nitrogen. This create a large debate among water specialist but during more than 20 years the nitrogen removal from the wastewater was done. However. the cyanobacteria bloom situation did not improve, not even in the sheltered bay that was the recipient for one of Stockholm’s wastewater treatment plants. This study together with other facts was the reason why the treatment plant in a test could release some higher concentrations of NO3 (and for 2 years total stop the nitrogen removal) that normal was allowed to the recipient. The result shows lesser to none cyanobacteria blooms. However, the total contribution of nitrogen from the archipelago to the Baltic was higher during the years the nitrogen removal was stopped (ie the nitrogen surplus from the treatment plant during "no removal" period was higher compared with the nitrogen fixating from the Cyanobacteria during periods of up to 90 removal of nitrogen in the treatment plant)– the authorities still demand high nitrogen removal from the treatment plants of Stockholm. In an earlier post I stated the opposite, but a closer check shows up that they have change direction again. But the cyanobacteria blooms were lesser to zero during the years with more nitrogen in the effluent of the treatment plant in the bay outside the plant. The nitrogen in the effluent during the period of no nitrogen removal was mostly NO3

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

As to the eutrophication in our aquariums - what chemical 'level' are you using to compare our aquaria to bodies of water with high eutrophication levels?

I was thinking of the phosphorus concentration and Carlson´s index

0-12 micrograms/l (PPB) -> Oligotrophic

12-24 micrograms/l (PPB) -> Mesotrophic

24 – 96 micrograms/l PPB) -> Eutrophic

96 - micrograms/l (PPB) -> Hypereutrophic



In ppm (milligram/l) PO4 – the table will be as follow

0 – 0,04 ppm PO4 -> Oligotrophic

0,04 – 0,07 ppm PO4 -> Mesotrophic

0,07 – 0,3 ppm PO4 -> Eutrophic

0,3 -> Hypereutrophic

My PO4 levels swing between 0,1-0,05 ppm PO4 - its rather Eutrophic

Sincerely Lasse

 

[spiraling]

They found some complicated biological and biochemical processes in the lakes with NO3 concentrations > 2 ppm. The lakes in the study had a stagnate bottom layer of anoxic water and proposed leakage of phosphorus from the sediment. The cyanobacteria in question migrate up and down in the water – during night-time they was down in the stagnate water – and the sediment – picking up phosphorus from the bottom, store it and consume it during daytime. The nitrogen – they fix by them self. Its important to stress that during the bloom PO4 levels in the water column was zero.

How come the 2 ppm NO3 into the process? In the sediment – there is a lot of phosphors blocked by metal/phosphorus complex. To release them and break the bounding – two things is needed – anaerobic conditions and forming of hydrogen sulphide. The sediment in both types of lakes – no NO3 in the water and with NO3 in the water column was anaerobic but hydrogen sulphide production did not occur in the lakes with > 2 ppm NO3. This is a well-known fact that NO3 in the water hinder the production of hydrogen sulphide. This is the reason why I never will let my NO3 level be zero in my aquarium. In the lakes with NO3 levels > 2 ppm – the migrating cyanobacteria could not get any phosphorus from the sediment because it was still blocked by metals.

This type of Cyanobacteria is able by themselves to produce the ammonia they need through fixating N2 dissolved in the water – they do not need any inorganic nitrogen species in the water – but they need phosphorus. It was zero in the water but in some lakes – they could get the needed phosphorus from the sediment - in the others, with NO3 levels > 2 ppm, - there was no phosphorus coming up from the sediment.

This is important in our aquaria – especially if you have a DSB or other construction that can be anaerobic. NO3 can control the release of phosphorus that is bound in gravel and other places. Without NO3 in the water – hydrogen sulphide will be produced during anaerobic conditions – hydrogen sulphide breaks the bonds between metals and phosphorus and phosphorus will be released to the water column as PO4. Once again – with this in – do not let GFO be in bags for passive uptake – use chambers with a flow of oxygen rich water.



Sincerely Lasse

Thank you for the explanation. So if I understand correctly the cyano in the lakes are competing for phosphorous and hydrogen sulfide, not nitrogen (as they can get this readily). But by increasing the NO3 levels, which they don't need, you eliminate the hydrogen sulfide, thereby limiting a needed resource. correct?

well that puts a little monkey wrench into the Redfield ratio. Yes things need n / p but that ratio can also alter concentrations other resources that may be needed.

 

[Lasse]

What do you think the results of this experiment would be: 3 tanks - each with perfect growth parameters for a strain of cyanobacteria and no other bacteria or living things. Each tank has a varying amount of nitrate lets say .5, 1 and 10 (since you stated that levels above 2 inhibit cyanobacteria). My guess is that there would still be Cyanobacteria growing in the tank with the high level.

Yes it will be living Cyanobacteria whatever you have in nutrients levels - but will they form mats and take advantage of this and out concur other organisms? - That´s the one billion question

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Thank you for the explanation. So if I understand correctly the cyano in the lakes are competing for phosphorous and hydrogen sulfide, not nitrogen (as they can get this readily). But by increasing the NO3 levels, which they don't need, you eliminate the hydrogen sulfide, thereby limiting a needed resource. correct?

well that puts a little monkey wrench into the Redfield ratio. Yes things need n, but that ratio can also alter concentrations other resources that may be needed.

The hydrogen sulfide is not a needed resource - but it is needed in order to release the phosphorus from the metal-phosphorus complex and make it available for the organism

Hydrogen sulphide is produced by anaerobic bacteria and they are blocked in one or another way by NO3 in the water

Sincerely Lasse

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

No but in other parts of your tank - there maybe is not other good conditions for forming mats. Nitrogen starvations is ONE known trigger - with this statement you can´t exclude other triggers or conditions for the building of mats. Something have to trigger the construction of the mats - because these Cyanobacteria are always present in our aquarium - the problem starts when they star to form mats.

What´s your NO3 level?

Sincerely Lasse

Got it.
As I thought. It's not indicative of a systemic problem. It's one trigger among many.

And I don't have cyano. Almost never do.

 

[spiraling]

The hydrogen sulfide is not a needed resource - but it is needed in order to release the phosphorus from the metal-phosphorus complex and make it available for the organism

Hydrogen sulphide is produced by anaerobic bacteria and they are blocked in one or another way by NO3 in the water

Sincerely Lasse

ah... got it. cyano need N, which there is an abundance of in the lakes, and P. P is limited by higher concentrations of NO3 (through hydrogen sulphur production or lack there of). So experimentally you should have no cyano if you just limited P to near 0, (or were able to limit N, which seem more difficult).

but of course in our reef tanks other things are competing for P, so limiting to 0 can also affect them.
Now is that correct?

 

[Reef Able]

This is a great write up and a great topic...Thank you OP for starting this amazing thread....i am dealing with a little cyano due to the fact of lowering nitrates to close to zero or under 1 and PO4 to 0.012 ...hence now i am in process of raising up the nitrates gradually with increased feeding to combat cyano...

 

[Lasse]

ah... got it. cyano need N, which there is an abundance of in the lakes, and P. P is limited by higher concentrations of NO3 (through hydrogen sulphur production or lack there of). So experimentally you should have no cyano if you just limited P to near 0, (or were able to limit N, which seem more difficult).

but of course in our reef tanks other things are competing for P, so limiting to 0 can also affect them.
Now is that correct?

No If P is limited in the water column (your PO4 reading shows 0 or near 0) it will not harm your Cyanobacteria if they have formed mats because they can, below the mats, create an anaerobic condition there they with help of hydrogen sulfide can gain phosphours that are bounded in the gravel (in metal complexes) (not in the water). However - NO3 if present - it will block other bacteria that produce hydrogen sulfide and hence - there is no phosphorus for the cyanobacteria. Therefore - I will not zero my dissolved phosphorus (as PO4) because it will harm my other organism using photosynthesis but not affect the cyanobacteria mat´s possibility to gain phosphorus from the gravel – if hydrogen sulphide is present. That’s also the reason why I do not zero the NO3 level – because NO3 in the water will harm the production of hydrogen sulphide.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This is a great write up and a great topic...Thank you OP for starting this amazing thread....i am dealing with a little cyano due to the fact of lowering nitrates to close to zero or under 1 and PO4 to 0.012 ...hence now i am in process of raising up the nitrates gradually with increased feeding to combat cyano...

ah... got it. cyano need N, which there is an abundance of in the lakes, and P. P is limited by higher concentrations of NO3 (through hydrogen sulphur production or lack there of). So experimentally you should have no cyano if you just limited P to near 0, (or were able to limit N, which seem more difficult).

but of course in our reef tanks other things are competing for P, so limiting to 0 can also affect them.
Now is that correct?

No If P is limited in the water column (your PO4 reading shows 0 or near 0) it will not harm your Cyanobacteria if they have formed mats because they can, below the mats, create an anaerobic condition there they with help of hydrogen sulfide can gain phosphours that are bounded in the gravel (in metal complexes) (not in the water). However - NO3 if present - it will block other bacteria that produce hydrogen sulfide and hence - there is no phosphorus for the cyanobacteria. Therefore - I will not zero my dissolved phosphorus (as PO4) because it will harm my other organism using photosynthesis but not affect the cyanobacteria mat´s possibility to gain phosphorus from the gravel – if hydrogen sulphide is present. That’s also the reason why I do not zero the NO3 level – because NO3 in the water will harm the production of hydrogen sulphide.

Sincerely Lasse

Thus the old adage , blow it off and clean( manual removal)
Do Small water changes. Not large ones(massive no3 removal, co2 reduction , particulate reduction , smaller ph boost ,avoiding low calcium carbonate addition)
Add bottled bacteria to compete for ammoina and free organic carbon sources.

 

[spiraling]

No If P is limited in the water column (your PO4 reading shows 0 or near 0) it will not harm your Cyanobacteria if they have formed mats because they can, below the mats, create an anaerobic condition there they with help of hydrogen sulfide can gain phosphours that are bounded in the gravel (in metal complexes) (not in the water). However - NO3 if present - it will block other bacteria that produce hydrogen sulfide and hence - there is no phosphorus for the cyanobacteria. Therefore - I will not zero my dissolved phosphorus (as PO4) because it will harm my other organism using photosynthesis but not affect the cyanobacteria mat´s possibility to gain phosphorus from the gravel – if hydrogen sulphide is present. That’s also the reason why I do not zero the NO3 level – because NO3 in the water will harm the production of hydrogen sulphide.

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for walking me through this. I really do appreciate the help in understanding the chemistry and biology in the tanks.

So for cyano, it readily gets N out of the water column (as ammonia or other forms), and they rely on hydrogen sulfide, and forming an anaerobic mat, to break down the trace metals in your sand and rocks to obtain P. Am I closer?

So the probable reason many people get cyano after carbon dosing is most likely they are not feeding the cyano, but rather dropping the NO3 levels low enough for cyano to obtain P?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Thanks for walking me through this. I really do appreciate the help in understanding the chemistry and biology in the tanks.

So for cyano, it readily gets N out of the water column (as ammonia or other forms), and they rely on hydrogen sulfide, and forming an anaerobic mat, to break down the trace metals in your sand and rocks to obtain P. Am I closer?

So the probable reason many people get cyano after carbon dosing is most likely they are not feeding the cyano, but rather dropping the NO3 levels low enough for cyano to obtain P?

Good question.
Would this not also be how most bacteria are fed?
My assumption would be it feeds bacteria evenly in the wc despite available nutints in the water.

 

[joeyhatch11]

Sodium Nitrate works wonders and simply adds Nitrates to the tank. This is what Im now doing in my 220 because I have 0 Nitrates and .06 phosphates. Granted I dont have any algae issues but I do have a TON of SPS that really benefit from the nitrates so Im looking to bump that up. Currently dosing 20ml a day of Sodium Nitrate

 

[spiraling]

Good question.
Would this not also be how most bacteria are fed?
My assumption would be it feeds bacteria evenly in the wc despite available nutints in the water.

I have always assumed the same.
If @Lasse assertions are correct that cyano does not take P from the water column, another explanation can also be that carbon is feeding other bacteria, which can then produce hydrogen sulphide as waste. That would be *an* explanation for cyano in tanks that have NO3 above 2. I'm pretty sure I only get it when my nitrates go too low though, so I'm not sure if that is possible in our reef tanks.

 

[Lasse]

Thanks for walking me through this. I really do appreciate the help in understanding the chemistry and biology in the tanks.

So for cyano, it readily gets N out of the water column (as ammonia or other forms), and they rely on hydrogen sulfide, and forming an anaerobic mat, to break down the trace metals in your sand and rocks to obtain P. Am I closer?

Yes a little bit

They can get N out from the water column but if (the way I have understand it) the N get low in the water column - they start to form mats. These mats create an anaerobic condition between the mat and the substrate (grave or rock) Anaerobic means without oxygen. In this environment they start to work together with different form of anaerobic bacteria that can produce inorganic ammonia (trough fixation of N2 gas or breakdown of organic matter) Now they have their source of N. Now – they need phosphorus too. Because the environment is anaerobic and the whole process started in a low N content in the water column (read – it means also a low NO3 concentration) – bacteria that produce a waste of hydrogen sulphide can start to work and produce this gas. This gas will break the bounds between earlier captured phosphorus in different metal/phosphorus compounds (the trick you use than you have GFO in order to capture free PO4) and voila – the cyanobacteria can get P also – below the mat. What will the aquarist do – if this happen – forming of the mats. I do not know but I will directly add some NO3 to the water – in order to block the forming of hydrogen sulphide. However (and read now @saltyfilmfolks ) if there is a lot of organics below the mat – the cyanobacteria can use phosphorus from that breakdown process and therefore –my husbandry include disturbing of the mats and away with them and possible organic stuff. And some of the cyanobacteria can also use chemical warfare in the mat stadium.

Keep asking - I also learn a lot (and read a lot) in order to answer your questions

I have not seen anywhere that Cyanobacteria can act as a heterotroph (ie eating other organisms). I have seen that according to some dinos but not for Cyanobacteria. That I haven’t seen it does however not exclude that it can be that way.

I´m not sure that all I have write is the truth and the complete truth – but till now – I can´t see any lose ends in my way to argue – more attacks please – and we maybe come up with something useable in the battle against Cyano bacteria.

Can´t someone construct a poll about which nutrient levels people have when the cyanobacteria begin to form mats?

@Brew12
If you feel that this discussion about cyanobacteria destroy your intention with this thread – pleas let me know

Sincerely Lasse

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yes a little bit

They can get N out from the water column but if (the way I have understand it) the N get low in the water column - they start to form mats. These mats create an anaerobic condition between the mat and the substrate (grave or rock) Anaerobic means without oxygen. In this environment they start to work together with different form of anaerobic bacteria that can produce inorganic ammonia (trough fixation of N2 gas or breakdown of organic matter) Now they have their source of N. Now – they need phosphorus too. Because the environment is anaerobic and the whole process started in a low N content in the water column (read – it means also a low NO3 concentration) – bacteria that produce a waste of hydrogen sulphide can start to work and produce this gas. This gas will break the bounds between earlier captured phosphorus in different metal/phosphorus compounds (the trick you use than you have GFO in order to capture free PO4) and voila – the cyanobacteria can get P also – below the mat. What will the aquarist do – if this happen – forming of the mats. I do not know but I will directly add some NO3 to the water – in order to block the forming of hydrogen sulphide. However (and read now @saltyfilmfolks )

I´m not sure that all I have write is the truth and the complete truth – but till now – I can´t see any lose ends in my way to argue – more attacks please – and we maybe come up with something useable in the battle against Cyano bacteria.

Can´t someone construct a poll about which nutrient levels people have when the cyanobacteria begin to form mats?
Sincerely Lasse

@Lasse tag Mr Farley.

I belive you are correct on one mode of cyano Bactria feeding and causality. I belive there are others.


Curiously, what I mentioned above also disrupts that cycle as well as the ones you have outlined.

Some old wives tales are true.

 

[Lasse]

@saltyfilmfolks

Det finns många sätt att flå en katt

Swedish saying of old men - means "There are many ways to skin a cat"

Sincerely Lasse

 

[spiraling]

Yes a little bit

They can get N out from the water column but if (the way I have understand it) the N get low in the water column - they start to form mats. These mats create an anaerobic condition between the mat and the substrate (grave or rock) Anaerobic means without oxygen. In this environment they start to work together with different form of anaerobic bacteria that can produce inorganic ammonia (trough fixation of N2 gas or breakdown of organic matter) Now they have their source of N. Now – they need phosphorus too. Because the environment is anaerobic and the whole process started in a low N content in the water column (read – it means also a low NO3 concentration) – bacteria that produce a waste of hydrogen sulphide can start to work and produce this gas. This gas will break the bounds between earlier captured phosphorus in different metal/phosphorus compounds (the trick you use than you have GFO in order to capture free PO4) and voila – the cyanobacteria can get P also – below the mat. What will the aquarist do – if this happen – forming of the mats. I do not know but I will directly add some NO3 to the water – in order to block the forming of hydrogen sulphide. However (and read now @saltyfilmfolks ) if there is a lot of organics below the mat – the cyanobacteria can use phosphorus from that breakdown process and therefore –my husbandry include disturbing of the mats and away with them and possible organic stuff. And some of the cyanobacteria can also use chemical warfare in the mat stadium.

Keep asking - I also learn a lot (and read a lot) in order to answer your questions

I have not seen anywhere that Cyanobacteria can act as a heterotroph (ie eating other organisms). I have seen that according to some dinos but not for Cyanobacteria. That I haven’t seen it does however not exclude that it can be that way.

I´m not sure that all I have write is the truth and the complete truth – but till now – I can´t see any lose ends in my way to argue – more attacks please – and we maybe come up with something useable in the battle against Cyano bacteria.

Can´t someone construct a poll about which nutrient levels people have when the cyanobacteria begin to form mats?

@Brew12
If you feel that this discussion about cyanobacteria destroy your intention with this thread – pleas let me know

Sincerely Lasse

I believe this is very much part of @Brew12 original post. He mentions:

Cyanobacteria has a N: P ratio of between 1:1 and 5:1. This gives it an ability to thrive in a low nitrate environment. To combat cyano, either add a phosphate remover or add nitrates.

And this discussion on cyano certainly refutes the part about adding phosphate remover and reinforces the add nitrates part, and absolutely confirms it thrives in a low nitrogen environment and maybe REQUIRE a low nitrate environment. But we can take it to a different thread if that is preferred.

I will try to make sense of this information in the confines of a reef tank. First off I think we all agree cyano needs at least 3 things: N, P, and light (since its photosynthetic). limiting any one of them will reduce the cyano to "acceptable" levels.

Light is a given in a reef tank, so not limiting. Even after a blackout it is believed that cyano strains are everywhere, and it is possible to get them from the air, so keeping it out of a reef tank is not possible. And limiting light will only work temporarily. (please refute if you feel this is incorrect) It is often cited that cyano likes lower light. I am unsure if this is the case, or it can more readily get nutrients from places that happen to be in lower light and low flow areas (sand bottom, detritus buildup) but either way reef tanks have an appropriate light level to grow cyano very well.

Cyano can readily get nitrogen from the water column. I am going to assert that the average reef tank has enough in the water column for cyano, and to reduce it to limiting levels I would assume we would then be impacting our nitrifying bacteria. Even if we did that it appears it can form symbiotic relationships with other anaerobic bacteria to produce nitrogen (unknown if these exist in out tanks). Either way limiting nitrogen probably isn't going to work for cyano.

So we need to limit phosphorous. It has been asserted that it does not get P from the water column, so adding a phosphate reducer (such as GFO in a canister) would presumably not work.

1 - bare bottom tank. these tanks anecdotally don't get much cyano. If the cyano creates a mat so it can pull P from below, then it would make sense on a glass surface that cyano cant use hydrogen sulfide to break down metals, because there are not enough trace metals in glass. These tanks my get it on rocks.

2 - sand bottom and NO3 < 2 In this condition the cyano forms mats and creates an anaerobic space. It depends on other anaerobic bacteria to create hydrogen sulfide (correct??) and it is assumed that these other bacteria are common in our tanks, or at least the ability to form a mat and use hydrogen sulfide in our tanks is common and accepted. The hydrogen sulfide breaks down the trace metals in the substrate (or rocks) to produce P. By increasing NO3 to >2 then the creation of hydrogen sulfide is inhibited, and the cyano is limited in getting P.

3 - sand bottom and "dirty". In this condition it is inferred that cyano can use decomposing food, poo, etc in the sand as a source of P. I would like to know more about this condition, because even those who routinely clean their sand will have some organics trapped there. So is there a threshold for how much? Routinely cleaning the sand would help with this, but quantitatively stating how clean sand should be is tough. Is there also a threshold with NO3 with dirty sand? Can if form mats at any NO3 level if there are enough organics below the mat?

Thoughts? Corrections?

 

[Brew12]

If you feel that this discussion about cyanobacteria destroy your intention with this thread – pleas let me know

Sincerely Lasse

Conversations such as this are exactly why I created this thread, I only regret that I have been too occupied to join in more! I'll need to go back and reread some of this.

[USER=66404]@Lasse , you have introduced me to a large amount of new science that I will need to take time to research![/user]