There’s no such thing as lineage...

[sixty_reefer]

In the hobby, so why so many ppl insisting on it?

From my understanding of lineage or ancestor we need proper paperwork and a public site we’re all this information is recorded And available so wend we buy a pet with lineage to be traced back and confirmed.

Is it possible to fill the same requirements on a coral to be legally considered a pedigree? As for my understanding a receipt is just part of the requirements needed to prove it, also the receipt is never going to be transferred down the line for the next 500 people who buy the coral.

I guess is how do you do it as I have never purchased a coral that fills all the requirements to be a pedigree.

 

[sfin52]

thats a good question

 

[JoeD_]

They are insisting on it because it boost the value of their coral. Reality is, the true lineage is the ocean. Someone got lucky by buying a wild coral, and it had stunning coloration, then they name it, then it gets fragged out. Then there is an issue of "lineage." I like "name stuff" but couldn't care less about the lineage. I just bought an ASD rainbow mili but since they weren't sure of lineage, I got it was cheaper and it's just as cool

 

[ZoWhat]

All the flowers in my garden all have a lineage....
Joe, the cashier at Lowes told me so



.

 

[sixty_reefer]

All the flowers in my garden all have a lineage....
Joe, the cashier at Lowes told me so



.

Sad truth my friend, but as it stands my beef from the market got more lineage prof than most coral I guess

 

[sixty_reefer]

They are insisting on it because it boost the value of their coral. Reality is, the true lineage is the ocean. Someone got lucky by buying a wild coral, and it had stunning coloration, then they name it, then it gets fragged out. Then there is an issue of "lineage." I like "name stuff" but couldn't care less about the lineage. I just bought an ASD rainbow mili but since they weren't sure of lineage, I got it was cheaper and it's just as cool

I find that naming corals helps identify certain colour morphs in the hobby and sometimes helpful, specially if you in to zoas, acros and mushrooms. Would be weird to go around and say can you give me some red, pink, orange, gold, maroon and violet zoa lol. But saying you can prove lineage may be out of order without any paper work specially wend ppl come out the blue and say you don’t have a jawbreaker you got just a mushroom. Doh and you have one? [emoji23] show me your breeder licence and ancient records...

 

[JoeD_]

I find that naming corals helps identify certain colour morphs in the hobby and sometimes helpful, specially if you in to zoas, acros and mushrooms. Would be weird to go around and say can you give me some red, pink, orange, gold, maroon and violet zoa lol. But saying you can prove lineage may be out of order without any paper work specially wend ppl come out the blue and say you don’t have a jawbreaker you got just a mushroom. Doh and you have one? [emoji23] show me your breeder licence and ancient records...

I agree, and I understand the whole supply and demand thing. The new trendy coral no one has yet will be super expensive and then be 75% cheaper or more in 2 years. I'm not one of those anti-name guys either, it is helpful. There is certainly a point where it does get over the top though.

 

[Hermie]

I'd be mostly concerned if lineages are lied about or guessed at and then sold as such. I've never read of that happening from any big vendors, nor am I sure how it would happen. That said, if there were actual paperwork, I assume the prices would go EVEN HIGHER, so I wouldn't really want pedigree paperwork at the consumer level.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'd be mostly concerned if lineages are lied about or guessed at and then sold as such. I've never read of that happening from any big vendors, nor am I sure how it would happen. That said, if there were actual paperwork, I assume the prices would go EVEN HIGHER, so I wouldn't really want pedigree paperwork at the consumer level.

Am pretty sure we see this being done day in day out, vendors don’t have any reason to lie about as they just named it. I don’t believe any legal paper work is done just name it and put it out der on the web. I don’t believe that vendors could do copy rights on a name also as they didn’t actually created the coral, they exist in nature. So the same coral can be named in the US one name and in China a totally different market name for the very same coral. Hence the beliefs that lineage in the hobby is a myth and always impossible to prove wend claimed.

 

[DangerDave]

I agree, it's all marketing bs. Having hobby names is cool, makes it easy to identify what a coral looks like. But as most of us have experienced, it may very well morph into another color variation. Insisting that it's worth more because of it's lineage is just silly.

 

[amoore311]

I want to know where the coral came from because I want to be insured what I'm paying for is what I am getting. It's the same reason I buy from reliable sources that don't true and play off specific corals for pieces they are not.

If you list a coral as a Dragon Soul, I want it be a Dragon Soul, I don't want a generic Electric Green Aussie Torch I can get at any one of of the 5 sources bringing stuff in right out of the ocean.

This question has been asked for the entirety of the 15 years I've been in the hobby. From the days of Tubbs Blue Zoas, Tyree War Coral, and Frags that were bigger than a pinky nail.


Great Example are ORA pieces. I go out of my way to source them for my tanks because a lot of them have been in the hobby for multiple generations of frags, 10+ years. Most of them are easier to keep than Zoas because they have just been in captivity that long. I want an ORA Red Planet because I know it's going to grow quick, I know the growth pattern, and I know it's borderline bulletproof in any reasonably stable tank. Not necessarily true for a red tabling across some dude with a frag tank in his basement just imported from australia.

This is more to speak to WHY hobbyists care so much about the source of the corals they buy. It's not always to make sure they are getting the newest coral with the most hype around it.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I agree, it's all marketing crap. Having hobby names is cool, makes it easy to identify what a coral looks like. But as most of us have experienced, it may very well morph into another color variation. Insisting that it's worth more because of it's lineage is just silly.

Lineage will always be a silly thing to say in the hobby, lineage = pedigree, as I never seen a coral cross reproduction with a different specie am pretty sure we can assume that all coral is pedigree. Can’t remember the last time a torch coral fancied an acropora and made a baby to contaminate the dna of the specie. So saying I want a pure specimen may not apply also to the hobby as they been all of pure dna for thousands and thousands of years [emoji6]

 

[shred5]

I understand all sides of this debate..

But lineage is required for more expensive corals because there are so many fakes out there. You need to very either receipt or you bought it from a reputable person.. Most high end corals are sold through individuals vs vendors. I trust vendors less because they bring in wild colonies and go yea this looks just like a Garf Bonsia so let call it that. that coral is probably the most faked coral out there.

I do think it is crazy what people spend on some of these corals because yea the prices drop fast and a red coral could go completely another color in your reef. Also theses little tiny frags are just the tips where all the color is and once grown out could be a bland coral for the most part.
It is not my money so I do not care. People should not really care it does not affect anyone else. Wait till the price comes down and buy it.

Again I understand linage for a expensive coral.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

All lineage means is that I bought this coral as “XYZ”. The problem is, now we see people buying a coral at a LFS and posting online “Is this a Cali tort?”. People say yes, and then two years later they are selling frags of “Cali tort” that most likely are not.

Lineage and names are useful if you buy a named coral, but once people started applying names to pieces they bought nameless, all the benefits of a name (known hardiness, known light/flow preferences, known growth rate and form, etc) were lost.

 

[shred5]

All lineage means is that I bought this coral as “XYZ”. The problem is, now we see people buying a coral at a LFS and posting online “Is this a Cali tort?”. People say yes, and then two years later they are selling frags of “Cali tort” that most likely are not.

Lineage and names are useful if you buy a named coral, but once people started applying names to pieces they bought nameless, all the benefits of a name (known hardiness, known light/flow preferences, known growth rate and form, etc) were lost.

But your post proves why people want proof of lineage and that is what the op is talking about.

 

[sixty_reefer]

All lineage means is that I bought this coral as “XYZ”. The problem is, now we see people buying a coral at a LFS and posting online “Is this a Cali tort?”. People say yes, and then two years later they are selling frags of “Cali tort” that most likely are not.

Lineage and names are useful if you buy a named coral, but once people started applying names to pieces they bought nameless, all the benefits of a name (known hardiness, known light/flow preferences, known growth rate and form, etc) were lost.

How would you say it’s not? No one made any dna test to any of the above, who gives someone the right to copyright natures creations for there own benefit. Did we stopped being marine hobbiest and started collecting coins? Is my silver dollar not worth the same as yours silver dollar? Or if I change the name on my dollar would be worth more than yours. Donno they both the same coin.

What if John Doe decides to change its silver dollar name also and start a complete new lineage for its silver dollar. And what if Jane decides to do the same? Are we going to be happy with 50 different names for the same coin? I believe that’s not the goal so in my view I don’t see any reason a person can’t use the same colour morp a vendor used to describe his coin, by doing so the hobby will be a bit simpler [emoji6]

 

[saltyhog]

Lineage is useful only if you believe the person you're buying it from. I guess if I really trusted someone and they told me this less than colorful coral was "XYZ" I would be a little more likely to take a chance on that coral. I don't worry about lineage too much....I want to see it in person or find someone whose pictures actually look like the coral that will arrive at my house!

 

[LARedstickreefer]

This is why I don’t buy frags from people that just met the minimum requirements to sell here. I wait until others verify the seller as legit. Also, it’s not hard to look at an Acro described as being a WD and tell if is or not. Always request pictures of the mother colony. If the mother doesn’t look like what you expect, then it’s either a fake or the seller isn’t very skilled. Both are dealbreakers.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

How would you say it’s not? No one made any dna test to any of the above, who gives someone the right to copyright natures creations for there own benefit. Did we stopped being marine hobbiest and started collecting coins? Is my silver dollar not worth the same as yours silver dollar? Or if I change the name on my dollar would be worth more than yours. Donno they both the same coin.

What if John Doe decides to change its silver dollar name also and start a complete new lineage for its silver dollar. And what if Jane decides to do the same? Are we going to be happy with 50 different names for the same coin? I believe that’s not the goal so in my view I don’t see any reason a person can’t use the same colour morp a vendor used to describe his coin, by doing so the hobby will be a bit simpler [emoji6]

To me, when I’m buying a coral, I don’t need the name to tell me what it looks like right now. I have eyes for that, I can see the coral. The name tells me other valuable information such as how long the coral has been in captivity, how hardy it is, the conditions it prefers, how it’s appearance might change under different conditions, etc. All of that information is lost when people start applying names to a different coral that looks similar.

 

[sixty_reefer]

To me, when I’m buying a coral, I don’t need the name to tell me what it looks like right now. I have eyes for that, I can see the coral. The name tells me other valuable information such as how long the coral has been in captivity, how hardy it is, the conditions it prefers, how it’s appearance might change under different conditions, etc. All of that information is lost when people start applying names to a different coral that looks similar.

Will have to disagree, the name only tells the face value of the coin/coral there’s no way on heart if am selling you a dragon soul (for example) that you could get out all the info just with the name dragon soul. The person you buying from can be a reputable seller on the forum and only den you can assume all that information but the colour morph name can only really tell you what to expect colour wise. Buying from reputable sellers is a theme for a different thread, we discussing here how to prove lineage and pedigree wich are different things I believe. And am using the silver dollar as a less confusing expression.