These lights are done for good....or are they?

[MnFish1]

Poll: Light settings.

So a recent Poll/question of the day talked about MH vs LED - Don't want to debate the plusses or minus of coral growth, etc - this poll is about 'light settings' and therefor how much energy is being used. Halides/T5's go off and on - and are running (from my understanding) at full power...

www.reef2reef.com

Here is a poll (dont want to derail the thread) - but - this discusses energy use between MH and LED

 

[scchase]

All I know is my Radion Gen 3 Pro is nowhere in the same ballpark as my 400 wt Mh, it barely covered a 24x24 frag tank and the edges could only grow low light stuff, replaced it last night with a 250wt Radium on a Cube ballast and the whole thing is lit up now. Maybe the newer generations are better but so far I am not impressed. Yes I had it at 100%

 

[MightyMO]

I have used both metal halide and t5... They aren't done until they stop making bulbs... Plan on using t5's on my next build...

 

[MnFish1]

All I know is my Radion Gen 3 Pro is nowhere in the same ballpark as my 400 wt Mh, it barely covered a 24x24 frag tank and the edges could only grow low light stuff, replaced it last night with a 250wt Radium on a Cube ballast and the whole thing is lit up now. Maybe the newer generations are better but so far I am not impressed. Yes I had it at 100%

The G3's are nothing compared to the G5's. At least with a par meter - im fine with 2 G5 X30 Pros on a 5 foot tank.... you can see it below - and on my build thread - there does not seem to be much shading

 

[oreo54]

All I know is my Radion Gen 3 Pro is nowhere in the same ballpark as my 400 wt Mh, it barely covered a 24x24 frag tank and the edges could only grow low light stuff, replaced it last night with a 250wt Radium on a Cube ballast and the whole thing is lit up now. Maybe the newer generations are better but so far I am not impressed. Yes I had it at 100%

 

[RayDRoot]

I would really like to know how long leds last.
Seems everyone upgrades every couple years.
Are their any studys on leds that plot their output over several years over a reef tank in the real world?
Maybe I missed them.
Anyone have a link?
I really like the orpheks but the Radions on 14k setting look real close to my 14K MH.
Leds are cheaper if you buy cheap ones.
I ran black boxes and they work.
Top of the line leds are not cheap if you run a large tank.
My next upgrade will be 3x my current 120 and will be MH and high end leds, the best of both world, imo.

My Radion Gen 2's have been running a 12hr schedule since 2013

 

[MnFish1]

All I know is my Radion Gen 3 Pro is nowhere in the same ballpark as my 400 wt Mh, it barely covered a 24x24 frag tank and the edges could only grow low light stuff, replaced it last night with a 250wt Radium on a Cube ballast and the whole thing is lit up now. Maybe the newer generations are better but so far I am not impressed. Yes I had it at 100%

Yes - you're right - there is now a G5

 

[scchase]

Oh I know there is a G5 but every says the best part about LED is not having to replace them, at least in this case it would cost me $800 to get the same thing that I got for free, gotta love used equipment. After doing the math the Radion Gen 3 still has not paid for itself and is looking doubtful to do so, wish I had PAR readings from when I first got it to know because it is dimmer for sure, really been struggling to grow acros under it for the past 6 month. Plumbed into the same system as my main tank and acros growing best they ever have there.

 

[Tundra Cuttle]

I think they are almost gone and very rare however I don't think they should go away. Removing variety of lighting choices can only hurt the hobby, we assume we have learned all there is to know about these technologies, but have we? What unexplored notions might we miss if these are not available for people to use and experiment with? I run super old school with MH + T12 VHO combo.

 

[X-37B]

My Radion Gen 2's have been running a 12hr schedule since 2013

Nice! Any chance you have par numbers when you first got them vs today.
This is what I would like to know.

 

[MugenReef95]

sorry

 

[eric.tech]

Correct - but - who says that you need 300 watts of LED - and 300 watts of MH. For example - I have read several people using 400 watt halide bulbs - the new Radion G5XR30 Pro uses 205 watts (according to my reading). So - that would save energy - secondly - most people ramp up their LED's - i.e. they are not at max power all day long - if you run MH lights - they go on and they go off. They are always using peak wattage - right?

And this is why we are here, to spark healthy conversations and debates! You are absolutely correct, but what would a 250watt hqi (still more wattage than the G5) produce similar par/spread to the G5? Also there have been advances in halide bulbs outside of our hobby, the ceramic metal halide bulbs that are used for hydroponics. They are more efficient than standard halide bulbs and produce less heat, but the highest spectrum I’ve seen is 10k and would need blue supplementation. I ran one of these lights for about two years over my tank and had good coral growth and the two bulbs were running at around 340watts. I would like to see what the par of these are compared to an led. When I rent a par meter one of these days, may hook it back up for giggles.

I can’t speak to the G5’s as I don’t currently have one, currently running G3’s, but would be curious to see how it looks vs a halide on two tanks side by side. Per ecotech, they were going after the halide spectrum with these lights. Does the G5 provide a similar look/light saturation as the halides? As the LEDs are more efficient and less energy is lost to heat vs a halide, I would be curious in a long term side by side test, which one actually grows corals better And compare the energy usage vs growth. As many have already said though, on a hobbyist level, seems as though each light has its strengths, weaknesses, and it comes down to what you would like to run and does it grow corals to your liking.

 

[MabuyaQ]

One of the nice things here if you take the time to read the fine-print, is that "specialty" bulbs are not included in this 'legislation'.

Cheers

This is true but the market for specialty bulbs is small, in decline, and untill now is sharing costs of production with the non-specialty bulbs. At some point this drives costs up to the point that there is either no profit or market left to just keep producing specialty bulbs. This is already happening with MH and will happen to T5 as well at some point in the future.

 

[RayDRoot]

Nice! Any chance you have par numbers when you first got them vs today.
This is what I would like to know.

Today, Gen 2 xr30 9" above the water 60% intensity AB+ schedule, just under the surface 450, mid 320, bottom 18" 180

 

[oreo54]

This is true but the market for specialty bulbs is small, in decline, and untill now is sharing costs of production with the non-specialty bulbs. At some point this drives costs up to the point that there is either no profit or market left to just keep producing specialty bulbs. This is already happening with MH and will happen to T5 as well at some point in the future.

Yep will have little to do with how good or bad the Mh's are.. Market will decide.

Shipping fragile bulky objects around the world isn't the most fun thing.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Well said!
I would still like to know what the par and spectral output is say 5 years down the road for leds, anyone!
Has anyone run led's for that long without issues?
With MH and T5's you get a new light every time you change your bulb.
Thats alot cheaper than new Led's every few years, lol.

Yes, All Led diodes do color shift with time, mostly due to heat impact on them, regardless of manufacture. Some better, some less good. This shift isn't sudden and takes years to happen. We can't see the shift as it happens so slowly, the same can be said about corals. They can easily adjust to the small amount of shift.

Also diodes will, most good ones, typically burn out, not become dimmer to the point of not emitting light.

With that said (and this is why I like chinese black boxes) with some light fixtures you can replace the diodes very cheaply. If you are DIY inclined. I've done this several times.

Yes, replacing a whole LED light fixture can be pricey, but it depends on the fixture and it's spectrum and Par. On the other hand, replacing T5 bulbs, depending on how many bulbs your light fixture has, every year can add up.

In the long run it comes down to what you like and willing to spend, but over time T5's may become harder and harder to get as they aren't easily recycled and eco friendly.

 

[naterealbig]

This is true but the market for specialty bulbs is small, in decline, and untill now is sharing costs of production with the non-specialty bulbs. At some point this drives costs up to the point that there is either no profit or market left to just keep producing specialty bulbs.

Would you use this same logic for Phillips, kessil?

What exactly drives the cost up? For innovation, R&D, sure - but that's not happening in the MH world. For production? No. The capital is sitting in the equipment already. At least one company that produces halide bulbs, noted an increase in sales over the last year or two. Less companies producing bulbs, therefore polarization to the companies who still are. Sorry I don't buy into the doom and gloom scenario here.

 

[Ratsinmyhead]

There will be hold outs but new tanks set up by young people will use LEDs. Why wouldn’t they?

Because of up front cost. I started my first tank just over 18 months ago. A 180. After over a year previous to setup of researching this hobby I saw that anything CAN grow coral. But I bought a used coralife aqualight 3x150w on Craig’s for $50. New bulbs and replacing the pc’s with t5 retros and I’m still Far below what I would have spent on anything but the cheapest black boxes to cover the tank. And living in Minnesota, what little heat is created just gives the heaters a break.

 

[MnFish1]

And this is why we are here, to spark healthy conversations and debates! You are absolutely correct, but what would a 250watt hqi (still more wattage than the G5) produce similar par/spread to the G5? Also there have been advances in halide bulbs outside of our hobby, the ceramic metal halide bulbs that are used for hydroponics. They are more efficient than standard halide bulbs and produce less heat, but the highest spectrum I’ve seen is 10k and would need blue supplementation. I ran one of these lights for about two years over my tank and had good coral growth and the two bulbs were running at around 340watts. I would like to see what the par of these are compared to an led. When I rent a par meter one of these days, may hook it back up for giggles.

I can’t speak to the G5’s as I don’t currently have one, currently running G3’s, but would be curious to see how it looks vs a halide on two tanks side by side. Per ecotech, they were going after the halide spectrum with these lights. Does the G5 provide a similar look/light saturation as the halides? As the LEDs are more efficient and less energy is lost to heat vs a halide, I would be curious in a long term side by side test, which one actually grows corals better And compare the energy usage vs growth. As many have already said though, on a hobbyist level, seems as though each light has its strengths, weaknesses, and it comes down to what you would like to run and does it grow corals to your liking.

My impression is that they can be 'set' to produce a look similar to halide - depending on which halide you are trying to match. If you read some of the papers from @Dana Riddle there is at least an implication - that we are using 'too much PAR' in some instances. I have 2 G5's on my 5 foot tank - and to my 'view' - that is plenty. But they do not run at 100%

 

[Dana Riddle]

My impression is that they can be 'set' to produce a look similar to halide - depending on which halide you are trying to match. If you read some of the papers from @Dana Riddle there is at least an implication - that we are using 'too much PAR' in some instances. I have 2 G5's on my 5 foot tank - and to my 'view' - that is plenty. But they do not run at 100%

When I managed the commercial coral farm in the late 90's, we used Iwasaki 6500K SE metal halides with no blue light supplements. As far as spectral quality goes (when it comes to photosynthesis), it dosn't matter once the photosaturation point is reached. And the experiment I did with Porites corals showed growth was not statistically different under 4 LEDs with distinctly different spectral qualities.