This hobby is getting even more ridiculous with pricing......

[Willz]

An indifference toward others or reality due to wealth can raise the price of housing or food well beyond the amount that typical households can afford. See SF as a good example: dot com billionaires swarm to the city, raising the rents and cost of living to unsustainable levels. Most of the dot com folks were not bad at heart (hopefully the rich jack wagons that have a campaign to ban homeless people because they pay enough in rent to not have to see them are just an ugly outlier). It was their indifference to the true value of money that screwed it up for everyone. It wasn't intentional, that is just the way it works.

Coral is the same way. You have some people that can afford to pay whatever for coral. If there is a demand for $60 a head hammers and $500 1/2" montipora then there will of course be vendors ready to sell at that price. Which makes other vendors that may have ethical concerns about it have to sell at that price as well or go out of business.

The equipment is totally overpriced. We all know that, but we don't have an option. And that certainly prices a large swath of the population out of the hobby.

Ultimately, there is nothing anyone can do. With wealth gaps the way they are this is bound to happen in just about everything you can get involved in.

 

[mgoesma]

Is it foolish if you have the disposable income and find it enjoyable? As long as both parties are happy with the selling price, I wouldn't call either a fool or greedy.

"the greater fool" is an economic term. ;-)

 

[Reeferdood]

Supply and demand... In a nutshell is what it is all about.
As long as people will keep paying the prices they will stay inflated. I remember when the Bubblegum Chalice went for some unreal cost per eye and people had to have it, nowadays it is practically free.
Interesting thread and points of views here...

 

[Brew12]

"the greater fool" is an economic term. ;-)

I guess that makes me a "forum fool". It's an internet term!

 

[mgoesma]

An indifference toward others or reality due to wealth can raise the price of housing or food well beyond the amount that typical households can afford. See SF as a good example: dot com billionaires swarm to the city, raising the rents and cost of living to unsustainable levels. Most of the dot com folks were not bad at heart (hopefully the rich jack wagons that have a campaign to ban homeless people because they pay enough in rent to not have to see them are just an ugly outlier). It was their indifference to the true value of money that screwed it up for the everyone.

Coral is the same way. You have some people that can afford to pay whatever for coral. If there is a demand for $60 a head hammers and $500 1/2" montipora then there will of course be vendors ready to sell at that price. Which makes other vendors that may have ethical concerns about it have to sell at that price as well or go out of business.

The equipment is totally overpriced. We all know that, but we don't have an option. And that certainly prices a large swath of the population out of the hobby.

Ultimately, there is nothing anyone can do. With wealth gaps the way they are this is bound to happen in just about everything you can get involved in.

I agree with you %100 an all but one point. "We all know that, but we don't have an option." we need to demand that vendors offer an affordable option. Its like the I phone yes they are over prices and people got fed up with it and a swarm of people came to the rescue with reliable phones for a much lower cost. we just need to inform then that we want it.

 

[DLHDesign]

I've got over 100 frags in my tank. The average price of all those frags was a little over $12 - all purchased online (eg; via a resource that practically any US-based reefer has).

IMO; it's possible to buy lower cost coral frags. It takes patience, effort, and a little bit of flexibility in terms of what you are willing to buy - but it's possible. If you are looking for a specific coral (eg; brand name, specific color/species/look, etc.), then yeah - you'll pay more for that.

 

[themcnertney]

You can get purple hornets for $5-10pp now but when I first got them 5 years ago they were $100pp.

Yup its all about trend. I would never buy a bounce mushroom as the price is ridiculous. Now in a couple years when the trend goes away, maybe I will pick one up.

 

[Willz]

I agree with you %100 an all but one point. "We all know that, but we don't have an option." we need to demand that vendors offer an affordable option. Its like the I phone yes they are over prices and people got fed up with it and a swarm of people came to the rescue with reliable phones for a much lower cost. we just need to inform then that we want it.

Believe me if I thought there was any way to collectively get together and stick it to the aquatic equipment manufacturing monopoly I'd be all about it. But in reality, organizing any group of people towards a common solution is just about impossible, even when it is in their best interest.

I know it's apathetic, but it is what is.

 

[Willz]

It's hard to stay angry when you have a beautiful reef tank to go home to and enjoy. hahah....

 

[BigJim]

It seems like there are more and more people in the hobby and that means more demand for corals. More demand without more supply will drive up the price of corals. I know it seems like the seller sets the price, but in reality the buyers sets the price. If a seller prices their frag at $100 and nobody buys it, the price will decrease until there is a buyer.

I get about half of my corals from local reefers and have never paid more than $30 for a frag. It’s still possible to get 10 corals for $100, but you might not get the latest and greatest. I occasionally splurge for an expensive coral, but most of my corals are the older “classics” and they didn’t cost me a fortune.

Many of the higher priced vendors actually travel to the source and buy many colonies once or twice a year. They then quarantine, grow out and frag the colonies with some losses along the way. That’s an expensive and labor intensive process. I know a couple vendors personally and they are not getting rich selling corals or fish.

 

[Brew12]

An indifference toward others or reality due to wealth can raise the price of housing or food well beyond the amount that typical households can afford. See SF as a good example: dot com billionaires swarm to the city, raising the rents and cost of living to unsustainable levels. Most of the dot com folks were not bad at heart (hopefully the rich jack wagons that have a campaign to ban homeless people because they pay enough in rent to not have to see them are just an ugly outlier). It was their indifference to the true value of money that screwed it up for the everyone.

Coral is the same way. You have some people that can afford to pay whatever for coral. If there is a demand for $60 a head hammers and $500 1/2" montipora then there will of course be vendors ready to sell at that price. Which makes other vendors that may have ethical concerns about it have to sell at that price as well or go out of business.

The equipment is totally overpriced. We all know that, but we don't have an option. And that certainly prices a large swath of the population out of the hobby.

Ultimately, there is nothing anyone can do. With wealth gaps the way they are this is bound to happen in just about everything you can get involved in.

I agree with much of this. The only aspect I don't agree with is the equipment being overpriced. How many skimmers does a company sell in a year? Even for the largest companies, this isn't a very high number. No one makes enough to justify setting up their own manufacturing facilities. They have to pay another factory set up costs to do a production run. They pay for the product. They have to pay for design, sales staff, shipping and advertising. They have to (or at least pretend to) offer customer service. They need to cover warranty costs. Even if skimmers were made by a very small company with 4 employees and sold 5,000 skimmers per year, how much would the margin need to be to provide a reasonable income to those 4 employees? It will be a lot more than the cost of the manufacturing process itself.

 

[Willz]

I get about half of my corals from local reefers and have never paid more than $30 for a frag.

I think as others have mentioned that this is the answer. Get involved with your reef club. Don't be an unmitigated mooch, don't try and Craigslist a guy down on a $15 coral, if you agree to a price bring the right money and be courteous. Don't ruin it for the rest of us. There are several reefers in my area (not many) who host meetings and nearly give away SPS when they need to prune. They also make healthy sidelines by selling or trading frags to the LFS. One of the guys got a Marineland 90g cube by doing this. Don't be a one way street either - share the love. Most all of us have stuff we can frag, even if it is GSP or xenia, and there are plenty of newbies whose minds will be blown by wavy softies. Make their day and give it to them.

 

[aaron23]

So based on that, it still puts the blame on sellers. Even though retailers got it dirt cheap, they decided to mark up the price 10000% and the exporters noticed and wanted in.

i'm sure you know that there is a ton of overhead for these retail brick and mortar businesses... employees water electric rent etc. how do you expect them to stay in business if they arent earning a profit?

i do understand your frustrations but thats the hobby, possibly buy from local club members as another option

 

[BigJim]

An indifference toward others or reality due to wealth can raise the price of housing or food well beyond the amount that typical households can afford. See SF as a good example: dot com billionaires swarm to the city, raising the rents and cost of living to unsustainable levels. Most of the dot com folks were not bad at heart (hopefully the rich jack wagons that have a campaign to ban homeless people because they pay enough in rent to not have to see them are just an ugly outlier). It was their indifference to the true value of money that screwed it up for everyone. It wasn't intentional, that is just the way it works.

Coral is the same way. You have some people that can afford to pay whatever for coral. If there is a demand for $60 a head hammers and $500 1/2" montipora then there will of course be vendors ready to sell at that price. Which makes other vendors that may have ethical concerns about it have to sell at that price as well or go out of business.

The equipment is totally overpriced. We all know that, but we don't have an option. And that certainly prices a large swath of the population out of the hobby.

Ultimately, there is nothing anyone can do. With wealth gaps the way they are this is bound to happen in just about everything you can get involved in.

I don't know if we can really compare a reef tank to housing or food. It's far from a necessity and you even stated many people are priced out of the hobby. Getting out of the hobby is an option. I would love to collect classic cars but it's a hobby I cannot afford.

 

[BigJim]

I don't know if we can really compare a reef tank to housing or food. It's far from a necessity and you even stated many people are priced out of the hobby. Getting out of the hobby is an option. I would love to collect classic cars but it's a hobby I cannot afford.

And in reality, you can start up a 40G breeder and 20 G sump with some used or low end equipment for a couple hundred dollars. If the hobby is truly about enjoying the livestock, that should be enough. I think there are too many people spending a fortune trying to keep up with the Jones’s.

 

[Willz]

And in reality, you can start up a 40G breeder and 20 G sump with some used or low end equipment for a couple hundred dollars. If the hobby is truly about enjoying the livestock, that should be enough. I think there are too many people spending a fortune trying to keep up with the Jones’s.

Totally agree bud

 

[Paul B]

This hobby like all good hobbies is as expensive as you want it to be. But if it was cheap, everyone would start a tank so there would be no more fish and corals in the sea.
To me, I think fish are cheap. I bought my fireclown 25 years ago for probably $15.00. So it cost me, I don't know, 60 cents a year. I have some gorgonians for ten years that cost me less than a buck a year.
If you are constantly buying fish and corals to replace ones that die, it will cost you a lot but you are also unnecessarily killing to many creatures from the sea.

I also build all my own lights and if I need pump, I get it used. I collect some of my water in the sea but when I have to make it out of fake water I only change water 5 or 6 times a year so it doesn't cost very much and I just don't think changing too much water is healthy.

Believe me if I thought there was any way to collectively get together and stick it to the aquatic equipment manufacturing monopoly I'd be all about it.

I know it's apathetic, but it is what is.

I know what you mean by this but I also have something to say about that. I have two aquarium related patents. One is the Majano Wand. The thing sells for about $129.00. That is a lot of money. I get a tiny portion of that even though the patent cost me about $25,000 and the molds to manufacture it cost another $5,000.00 which I had to lay out weather I was granted the patent or not. Also weather it sold or not I was out $30,000.00. I also do not own the company that sells it. I am just the inventor and patent holder.
Most of the profits go to the manufacturer, shipper, wholesaler and insurance with very little actually going to the owner/inventor.
If the Majano Wand sold for lets say $8.00 less. I personally would lose money on each unit out of my pocket.
Large corporations that build pumps, filters, lights etc. Also have those and larger problems and most of them are not getting rich off of this stuff. Some of them certainly are but they all had to invest a lot of money in the hope their "thing" sells. I am not trying to make excuses for this, I am just pointing out how it is.

As for fish prices. I have been to many places where they collect fish. Fish are very cheap, practically free from the collector himself. Then they go to a holding facility on the Island then to a shipper, to the airport, then to a wholesaler and finally to a store. The majority of those fish die in transport and the retailer loses his share before he sells the rest. Do you know any rich fish store owners?
It is what it is. There is a lot of loss in this business and unfortunately we (and the fish themselves) are the biggest losers.

 

[Willz]

I don't know if we can really compare a reef tank to housing or food. It's far from a necessity and you even stated many people are priced out of the hobby. Getting out of the hobby is an option. I would love to collect classic cars but it's a hobby I cannot afford.

Fair enough, not an apples to apples comparison. I think your second post kind of highlighted it too. Everyone needs the newest, fastest, bestest, and that in itself drives prices up too.

And I think if it was totally cheap and common we wouldn't aspire to it. Like your desire to have sports cars. If everyone had a '67 Camaro none of us would want one.

 

[Brew12]

I would love to collect classic cars but it's a hobby I cannot afford.

Matchbox cars are classic.... maybe you just need to shift your expectations!

 

[BigJim]

Fair enough, not an apples to apples comparison. I think your second post kind of highlighted it too. Everyone needs the newest, fastest, bestest, and that in itself drives prices up too.

And I think if it was totally cheap and common we wouldn't aspire to it. Like your desire to have sports cars. If everyone had a '67 Camaro none of us would want one.

Agreed. And hopefully I'm not coming across as heartless. I have given away or sold at a reduced price plenty of livestock and equipment. I am not wealthy but still feel fortunate to be able to afford some nice equipment and livestock. I just think we sometimes get so caught up in the price of the high level stuff and don't realize that fellow hobbyists are our greatest resource.