THIS IS DRIVING ME CRAZY!!!

Belgian Anthias · Jun 21, 2018

Controlling diatoms is mostly a matter of competition. Removing them a question of consumers. One could try to remove the silica ( is removed with GFO, but GFO removes also what is needed for the competitors ) Removing the nutrients does only remove the competitors and what comes available is used by the diatoms as they are more effective in using nutrients in limited nutrient conditions. And when you do not have cyano break outs yet this will be only a matter of time.. Better is adding clamps and /or sponges as competitors for the silica for keeping it in control.
Removing diatoms may be done by culturing rotifers and copepods which will consume them. One can buy a cultures of (MARINE!) rotifers and copepods and culture them in a separate vessel or in a refugium. When you have plenty you can free them in the aquarium. They will remove the diatoms very fast. Rotifiers and copepods are added during the night!

CDavmd · Jun 21, 2018

Hate to say it but looks like Dino's. You don't need much magnification to see them. I can distinguish at 40X with my old med school microscope. The dino's will tumble and swim. Diatoms will look like spicules. Until you definitely ID, you will not attack this correctly. The thread linked above in the previous post has all the info you need.

Servillius · Jun 21, 2018

Belgian Anthias said:
Controlling diatoms is mostly a matter of competition. Removing them a question of consumers. One could try to remove the silica ( is removed with GFO, but GFO removes also what is needed for the competitors ) Removing the nutrients does only remove the competitors and what comes available is used by the diatoms as they are more effective in using nutrients in limited nutrient conditions. And when you do not have cyano break outs yet this will be only a matter of time.. Better is adding clamps and /or sponges as competitors for the silica for keeping it in control.
Removing diatoms may be done by culturing rotifers and copepods which will consume them. One can buy a cultures of (MARINE!) rotifers and copepods and culture them in a separate vessel or in a refugium. When you have plenty you can free them in the aquarium. They will remove the diatoms very fast. Rotifiers and copepods are added during the night!

These are some neat suggestions I’ve not heard tried before. Very cool.

I do want to take up a point however. It’s really strange to me that GFO and low phosphates have been a part of thousands of amazing and successful tanks for decades. How we went all of a sudden to it being a reef killer mystifies me. I really think there’s a lot of overreaction here, specially when we consider the water conditions in nature.

Hockeypunk1 · Jun 21, 2018

Servillius said:
These are some neat suggestions I’ve not heard tried before. Very cool.

I do want to take up a point however. It’s really strange to me that GFO and low phosphates have been a part of thousands of amazing and successful tanks for decades. How we went all of a sudden to it being a reef killer mystifies me. I really think there’s a lot of overreaction here, specially when we consider the water conditions in nature.

I agree to an extent. In my opinion the main difference is the use of dead rock and extremely efficient skimming. When you start with real live rock you also introduce an plethora of different bacteria and microfauna that you don't get with dead rock. So by usimg the dead rock it typically takes a year before your tank is really going to take off and not have the dinos and other nuisance type events that usually doesn't happen with live rock.

This hobby has evolved so much over the last 15 years and most of the newest methods has been aimed at reducing nutrients, which used to be one of the biggest problems we faced. Now when you employ one or several of these highly effective nutrient reduction methods on a tank that is practically void of nutrients, and should probably be left to mature, you wind up stripping the tank of all nutrients. This gives dinos and the like an opening to take over.

Hockeypunk1 · Jun 21, 2018

Also in nature all these things exist in perfect harmony competing with and eating one another. We can all try and come very close but it's practically impossible to recreate the exact circumstances that happen in the ocean. Luckily for us coral and fish are extremely adaptive to different conditions or else we could never hope to keep them alive for a day.

Dj City · Jun 22, 2018

I am going to buy a cheap microscope and see what I can see.

I think I'm going to attack this problem by taking GFO offline and using the Dr. Tim's Re-Fresh and Waste-Away first.
Next is a new icp test to see where im at. I plan on trying to lower silicates and up my nitrates a bit with Brightwell Neonitro.

Dj City · Jun 22, 2018

My tank is out of balance and it looks like nitrates are too low. Silica is in acceptable range so I'm going to try to be careful lowering them while being careful getting nitrates a bit higher.

Hopefully I can also up my copepods. Never used rotifers before but im willing to give them a try.

Where do I get them? How much do I need and how do get them thriving?

Dj City · Jun 22, 2018

My bad...
Nitrates are good.
Phosphate is low.

How (or should) I increase phosphate?

Hockeypunk1 · Jun 22, 2018

Brs just put out a video today on the amount of silicates that gets released by di resin. It's pretty crazy

Hockeypunk1 · Jun 22, 2018

Dj City said:
My bad...
Nitrates are good.
Phosphate is low.

How (or should) I increase phosphate?

Feed more flake and pellet food

vetteguy53081 · Jun 22, 2018

RO water is part of remedy. What are you feeding and are you rinsing/straining foods prior to feeding? Also. aiming a powerhead with low /moderate movement at bedding will help

Fowler freak · Jun 22, 2018

Dj City said:
I have had this tank running for almost 5 years and I can't beat Diatoms. It's been a constant no matter what I've done.

Over the years I have
Used RO/DI water exclusively
Replaces my sump
Replaced my CUC
Used Biopellets in reactor
Used GFO and Rox8 Carbon in dual reactor
Used GFO and Rox8 Carbon in separate reactors
Upgraded lighting
Reduced lighting time
DO NOT OVERFEED
Hydrogen Peroxide dosing
Vacuumed sandbed
Used Algae Reactor
Set up larger Refugium
Implemented the Triton Method
I'm sure there are things I've tried other things that i'm forgetting.

I am trying a 3 day blackout as I type this but i'm not expecting great results.

I just want this brown stuff on the sandbed GONE!!! I want it GONE for GOOD!!!

Here are pics of this brown/red/rust colored stuff on my sandbed and I want to DEFEAT THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL!

Please help a fellow reefer out with finding a solution to this 5 year old problem.

I had that problem until I added a few sand sifting gobys and problem solved

Dj City · Jun 23, 2018

If I could add a goby, I would but I think my lion fish would eat it.
That would probably be an expensive snack.

PhreeByrd · Jun 25, 2018

I have to agree with those who suggest that you must first confirm that it's diatoms that you're dealing with. In my experience, diatoms will coat the tank's walls as much or more than the sand bed, while cyanobacteria will be more prone to colonize the surface of the sand bed. But those are generalizations and may not always hold true. Cyanobacteria can be almost any color, so your photo alone is not conclusive.
If it does turn out to be diatoms, then the prevailing wisdom for the cause is high silicates.

The BRS video Hockeypunk1 referred to about DI resins releasing nutrients is very informative, and worth a watch (2018/06/22). Could be your R/O water is a source of problems.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d..._1&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=June_22_2018

I would not add anything to try to 'eat' this stuff until you know for sure what it is.

Dj City · Jun 25, 2018

What magnification do I need to ID. diatoms from cyano or anything else?
I don't want to spend a buttload on a microscope that I am likely to only use once or twice.

PhreeByrd · Jun 25, 2018

As I remember, you need around 1000X magnification with very good optics to clearly see these things -- that's likely to be a very pricey DIY route. If you have a nearby college or university, somebody in the biology department will probably be willing to help you out. Many veterinarians also have high quality microscopes and probably know what to look for -- that's how I was first able to view cyanobacteria under a microscope.

Most often, these microbes can be identified at 1X magnification by how they colonize. There is a wealth of reliable info (and photographs) on the WWW or at your local library. I suggest that you don't trust all photos posted by hobbyists to forums like R2R, as many of these can be cases of mistaken identity. Make sure any images you find are from a reliable source, then compare away.

Dj City · Jul 17, 2018

Microscope received..
Microscope used..
Dinos positively identified..
Amphidinium dinos to be exact. Both large cell and small cell.

Now the real work begins and that work is NOT charted on how to defeat the little buggers!!!

ajm83 · Jul 17, 2018

Dj City said:
Microscope received..
Microscope used..
Dinos positively identified..
Amphidinium dinos to be exact. Both large cell and small cell.

Now the real work begins and that work is NOT charted on how to defeat the little buggers!!!

I was right then, it's the same as i had.

Raise phosphate level. Add competitors.