Thoughts on methods of eliminating water changes ?

[Lasse]

First my apologies for not taking the time to read the entire thread... So a week or two ago I ran the math on this. For removal of bad stuff or addition of good stuff, water changes converge to a steady state depending on how much you do how often. It will never remove all the bad stuff or keep the good stuff at the levels of a fresh mix of seawater. If you want to do either of these you will need another solution: dosing for trace and other techniques for removal of nitrate/phosphate and other bad organics. I'm curious how very large systems (> 500 gallons) and/or public aquariums handle these issues. Water changes for them would be very expensive and impractical.

This post is from a public aquaria in Gothenburg

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ting-water-changes.318664/page-2#post-3943800

Sincerely Lasse

 

[cubbyman60]

Interesting article. To be honest, water changes scare me. The idea that stability is the key in any reef, by doing a water change, aren’t we adding to the instability? My alk runs 6.8-7.1 and nutrients are always reading almost undetectable, so my thinking is by doing a water change, alk is going up and nutrients are going even lower which is what I don’t want. I have done no water changes in 3 years now and dose/test everything from trace elements to nitrates to alk and calcium.

What "method" are you using?

 

[JasPR]

well, for my 'two cents', you can try-- you can spend fortunes and endless hours to try and fool mother nature. But there is only ego involved in the end-- as you can't fool mother nature. Even wild reefs have water changes-- tide changes, omni present but shifting water currents and underwater 'rivers', wind patterns and natural 'foam fraction' in the tidal zones and wave action-- water is constantly being 'changed' by dilution. So in a closed box, we cannot create a perpetual motion machine-- nor should we want to. An aquarium is a closed system where things are used up and other things build up-- you can convert, mask and otherwise manipulate the loss and the negative gains. But you will never be able to create a base line better than nature's or her desire to implement her rules and laws. IMHO of course

 

[Keiffer the reefer]

When I do 10% water changes in my reef tank the ORP reading on my apex drops considerably. I have no idea what might be causing or what it means, but I treat it as a reminder that changing measurable percentage of the water has the potential to shock the balance of the system and stress the animals. I've been doing 5% changes about every couple months lately. My intention is to stop water changes all together.

My system uses a macro algae as nutrient export. I do not run a skimmer. I dose kalk, 2 part, vinegar, potassium nitrate, Red Sea color c for iron and mag.

Alk 7.5-9 (I really want a alk monitor to minimize this variation), calcium 450, mag 1350, NO3 varies from undetectable to 10ppm, PO4 varies from .02 - .12. I've just started monitoring K and trying to keep it 400 but still working out dose. My system does use measurable amounts of K.

I have a 65 gallon tank with about 52 gallons of water volume and about 80 lbs of pour out live rock. 13 fish including a yellow tang, one spot fox face and flame angel. Rest of fish are small.

I use a kessil h80 for the refugium light and it grows algae like a boss.

My system is about 2 years old. LPS, softies and most sps do great, but acropora species don't thrive in my system.

 

[Paul B]

The sea has an enormous influx of nutrients and trace elements from deep sea vents and active volcanoes. If you have ever seen a volcano spew lava into the sea you would be amazed at the volume of melted rock that is added to the sea every minute.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Maybe BRS can conduct a test running a sizable skimmer on RODI tank for a period of time and run an ICP/triton test on it. It should give us an idea the amount of contaminant going into our tank via skimmer @Ryanbrs please consider

Triton cannot detect any of the organics that you mentioned being concerned about (pesticides, odors, etc.).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

When I do 10% water changes in my reef tank the ORP reading on my apex drops considerably. I have no idea what might be causing or what it means, but I treat it as a reminder that changing measurable percentage of the water has the potential to shock the balance of the system and stress the animals. I've been doing 5% changes about every couple months lately. My intention is to stop water changes all together.

It means you added some trace metals in a reduced form, such as Fe++ (ferrous iron). I do not think that this is any different than dosing those same metals.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Can corals derive trace elements from feedings rather than supplementing elements into the water column?

Some yes. Is it enough? Sometimes not. Sometimes it is too much.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I use to do ~10% water changes and it seemed to cause instability and some corals would look terrible or die quickly after. I havnt done a water change in months and my tank is at its best. I don't vacuum or clean the sand either. Everything is bright, growing and healthy. Mixed tank of lps and few sps.

Many folks report an improvement after water changes, but if your concern with water change is instability, you can perform them in a more consistent way. Many of us change water slowly and automatically using pumps. A typical protocol is to change water many times per day, slowly, amounting to about 1% daily.

 

[tsav87]

Randy, how often (and how much) do you do water changes?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy, how often (and how much) do you do water changes?

My tank is down right now, but for many years I changed ~1% daily using very slow automatic changes (like 20 x 15 minute changes each day and night).

For that sort of change, nothing in the new water needs to match the tank. I never heated it, etc.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Triton cannot detect any of the organics that you mentioned being concerned about (pesticides, odors, etc.).

In that case, GAC in a sump/reactor and activated carbon filter for skimmer/air pump will be our best defense against air contaminants/pollution.

 

[tsav87]

I know we can't test for the build up for certain contaminants (hand soap, air fresheners, etc) but wouldn't large (80%?) water changes be necessary every now and then to course correct so to speak? I'm all up for no water changes, but until we can test for all contaminants, I don't think completely NO water changes would be the healthiest for our reefs. Perhaps like others have mentioned, large annual or biannual water changes to compensate for the eventual build up of the unknowns would be a wise practice.

On the other hand, who's to say that between a good carbon media regimen and a good skimmer that these contaminants aren't already being properly removed from the tank? I mean, as stated many times above, we can't test them, we have NO IDEA what the levels of concentration are.

Food for thought.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I know we can't test for the build up for certain contaminants (hand soap, air fresheners, etc) but wouldn't large (80%?) water changes be necessary every now and then to course correct so to speak?

More frequent smaller ones also works.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

I know we can't test for the build up for certain contaminants (hand soap, air fresheners, etc) but wouldn't large (80%?) water changes be necessary every now and then to course correct so to speak? I'm all up for no water changes, but until we can test for all contaminants, I don't think completely NO water changes would be the healthiest for our reefs. Perhaps like others have mentioned, large annual or biannual water changes to compensate for the eventual build up of the unknowns would be a wise practice.

On the other hand, who's to say that between a good carbon media regimen and a good skimmer that these contaminants aren't already being properly removed from the tank? I mean, as stated many times above, we can't test them, we have NO IDEA what the levels of concentration are.

Food for thought.

When every parameters are good but inhabitants are dying, you know there is (are) something in there causing it.

First sign (my experience) of contaminants was inverts dying and acting funny. Their movement slows down overtime and eventually stop moving/eating and died due to starvation. I "bought" a few snails from the beach, slow dripping for acclamation, after a few minutes they stop moving completely. I made a small batch of IO saltwater (using it to adjust my SG when it drops due to skimming), all of them quickly returned to normal in this new saltwater. 80 litres WC was done right away with NSW. Made an activated carbon filter for my skimmer and no more dying inverts before I decommissioned my skimmer.

 

[traxxonwaxx99]

The main issue with trace elements I believe is Ionic balance rather than "feeding" your corals. Understanding the Full Balling method gives a good picture of this. Most reefers only dose Ca Mg and Carbonate which inherently leads to a buildup of ionic imbalance. If you dose the complete Balling method or something compatible, then really water changes aren't necessary. But I believe even with that method, you are only estimating what trace elements are being absorbed in your system. The trace additives in each mixture of the 3 part is doing a good job replacing them but over long periods of time, the ionic balance will still be shifted as no 2 tanks can possibly use the same amounts. There is the logic that if your major elements are being consumed at a certain rate, that should correlate to the minor trace elements being consumed at a proportionate rate but I must believe that with the diverse possibility of livestock, that consumption should have a wide variable consumption rate as well. I think using the complete Balling method combined with a ULNS system such as Zeo or biopellets or Algae Scrubber you could probably go many months without changing but eventually would need to correct the ionic imbalance.

 

[tsav87]

More frequent smaller ones also works.

So in theory you agree with less frequent, larger water changes?

I would imagine that for many reefers, elaborate AWC systems are not an option, especially when all of the tanks equipment is housed inside the stand, inside our living rooms. The chore of weekly or bi-weekly water changes gets to be monotonous. If it becomes a chore, the less likely reefers will continue it. They may leave the hobby, or let the tank suffer. Neither of which are desirable at all. With an ionically balanced dosing system (such as Triton) aided by a simple automatic dosing pump, combined with less frequent, but larger water changes may be the goldilocks area for most hobbyists.

 

[Heath Barker]

I perform them for nutrient control and trace element replacement. I have a decent size fuge with a mixture of macro's in it. Its around 5 gallons in size my tank is a 60 cube. It doesn't completely export my nutrients as its probably under sized. I'm working on a 300 gallon 2 aquarium system 40 gallons will be fuge and 40 gallons for skimmer dosing top off etc. My plan is for this to be a triton system just waiting for a few more parts to show up then I can plumb and move my current 60 over to it along with about 100 pounds of cycled live rock.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So in theory you agree with less frequent, larger water changes?

I agree they will remove contaminants, but I prefer more frequent smaller changes.

 

[Ryanbrs Verified Sponsor]

In that case, GAC in a sump/reactor and activated carbon filter for skimmer/air pump will be our best defense against air contaminants/pollution.

Or potentially no skimmer. If your ATS or fuge is managing nutrients well enough do you need one? I'm not sure I buy into a skimmer being a major source of containments but if that's the case you can build a system that doesn't require one.