Tiny sump, but what's the issue?

[Harrison Gordon]

I have a 75 gallon with a tiny 10 gallon sump. But, I fit everything I need in there--a filter sock, a media reactor with NP-Pellets, a 150sss Reef Octo skimmer rated for up to 210 gals, and my return pump and ATO.

I had my LFS come to my house while I was away to keep the tanks in order, and they said that I need to buy a larger sump....but I'm not sure I understand why I need a larger sump if I can fit everything I need in there, and if I want to buy anything else it's most likely that it does not need sump space.

Is the LFS just trying to get me to purchase one of their sumps or do they have a valid point? Will a larger sump improve the health of my tank?

thanks!
Harrison

 

[Jimbo662]

More water volume is always better. My main concern would be the sump overflowing for whatever reason.

 

[sghera64]

I have a 75 gallon with a tiny 10 gallon sump. But, I fit everything I need in there--a filter sock, a media reactor with NP-Pellets, a 150sss Reef Octo skimmer rated for up to 210 gals, and my return pump and ATO.

I had my LFS come to my house while I was away to keep the tanks in order, and they said that I need to buy a larger sump....but I'm not sure I understand why I need a larger sump if I can fit everything I need in there, and if I want to buy anything else it's most likely that it does not need sump space.

Is the LFS just trying to get me to purchase one of their sumps or do they have a valid point? Will a larger sump improve the health of my tank?

thanks!
Harrison

When your power goes out, how far up does your sump fill? Is there a risk that I might over flow?

 

[JoshH]

Not only is it nice to have more water volume it's nice having extra space to work in and do maintenance. But in saying that, as long as it doesn't overflow when you shut all your pumps off as mentioned above, it fits everything you need and your happy with it. There's no real reason to upgrade.

 

[cracker]

A pic maybe? A 75 could use a bigger sump. I'd think there would be room in the stand. A 20 gl 02 20 long tank would,give you more room for equipment .
I also agree with Josh above.

 

[mcarroll]

I have a 75 gallon with a tiny 10 gallon sump. But, I fit everything I need in there--a filter sock, a media reactor with NP-Pellets, a 150sss Reef Octo skimmer rated for up to 210 gals, and my return pump and ATO.

First, a sump is completely optional. If that's something you never considered, it's at least something to think about and see how folks do it.

Second, "need" can be defined much more narrowly to free up some space even within the limited confines of a 10 Gallon. Nix the filter sock and media reactor. Definitely nix the media reactor – pellets are not going to help with anything in a new tank, but they can seriously throw a new system out of whack. The socks are merely extra, not potentially harmful.

Third, the main consideration for such a small sump will be backflow containment. If 1" of water drains from your display tank into the sump, that's ([1 x 48 x 18]/231=) 3.75 gallons of water in addition to the volume of the plumbing itself. If you have 3.75 gallons of space left in the sump under normal operating conditions, then no problem! But you better be sure! Test it. Test it a dozen times or so. Test it again next week. No joke.

But if it works under test, then it works. No worry.

That said, why not keep your eyes open for a used 30 Gallon Long or 40 Breeder?

 

[Harrison Gordon]

First, a sump is completely optional. If that's something you never considered, it's at least something to think about and see how folks do it.

Second, "need" can be defined much more narrowly to free up some space even within the limited confines of a 10 Gallon. Nix the filter sock and media reactor. Definitely nix the media reactor – pellets are not going to help with anything in a new tank, but they can seriously throw a new system out of whack. The socks are merely extra, not potentially harmful.

Third, the main consideration for such a small sump will be backflow containment. If 1" of water drains from your display tank into the sump, that's ([1 x 48 x 18]/231=) 3.75 gallons of water in addition to the volume of the plumbing itself. If you have 3.75 gallons of space left in the sump under normal operating conditions, then no problem! But you better be sure! Test it. Test it a dozen times or so. Test it again next week. No joke.

But if it works under test, then it works. No worry.

That said, why not keep your eyes open for a used 30 Gallon Long or 40 Breeder?

I went about two months with no sump, and decided that it was best to get one for my application. So, within my very limited budget, I made it work. Right now I just have low flow, because I built my own HOB overflow while waiting until a time when I could drill holes in the back and install my Modular Marine.

As for the back flow, I have a check valve on the return so no issue there, and in normal operation the water level is only about a half inch above the weir teeth bottom, so with the sump running at about half full there aren't any issues. It is not storm season right now so I haven't been concerned about power and haven't tested it in a while (since I did some upgrades) but when they have said a big storm is coming I literally just shut off the filtration. I can easily test of course, but I am probably going to have to change the baffles once I install the modular marine (this week!!!) since it will have a larger flow.

Now, my tank his been running since march, so, new....ish? Or is that considered new? Why do you say the pellets are bad? They seem to keep my nitrates and phosphates down. Rn they are 10ppm and 0.25ppm, a little higher than usual but still not bad. My LFS however recommended to swap the pellets with some phosban or GFO.

I also just recently got a filter sock because there is a lot of particulate matter floating around my tank for whatever reason and I don't like how that looks so the sock rids of it for the most part.

just did a water change so pics show sump level higher than normal

thanks!

 

[JoshH]

As for the back flow, I have a check valve on the return so no issue there, and in normal operation the water level is only about a half inch above the weir teeth bottom, so with the sump running at about half full there aren't any issues.

Well it sounds like your sump should atleast take any water that will over flow which is great. But I will say this, do not put all your faith in a check valve. While great to have they do have a tendency to fail, especially if it's the flapper style. They are great for an extra failsafe but the only 100% way to be sure your safe is to make sure your sump will take all the backflow. How far deep is your return outlet submerged in your DT?

 

[ZoWhat]

Well heck yeah they want you to buy a large sump from them.....

It's a SALES OPPORTUNITY inviting Retailers into your house
.

 

[mcarroll]

I'm pretty sure suggesting a larger sump is not like that.

 

[Harrison Gordon]

Well it sounds like your sump should atleast take any water that will over flow which is great. But I will say this, do not put all your faith in a check valve. While great to have they do have a tendency to fail, especially if it's the flapper style. They are great for an extra failsafe but the only 100% way to be sure your safe is to make sure your sump will take all the backflow. How far deep is your return outlet submerged in your DT?

Return is about 3" under. Check valve is the push-spring style if you know what I mean.

But my LFS was implying that a bigger sump will help my tank in the sense of water quality. They were being very general, saying it's too small. They said my skimmer doesn't function properly and said if the sump is bigger that it would help but it is submerged to the proper height and fits inside so I don't see an issue????

 

[Redleg]

Buck a gallon on at petco right now. You could double your sump for cheap. Or buy a 40b for $50. Cheap insurance for a failed check valve.

 

[Harrison Gordon]

Well, Im at double my budget and I have put in so much work already, so I need a pretty dang good reason to make a completely new sump.
Of course I have to find out how the water is handled with the modular marine, but I think I should be good with power outage concerns...so I don't see a reason to get a new sump, yet.

Also, my LFS said that the skimmer isn't working properly (which EITHER it isn't, because it puts all the gunk on the inside of the collection cup and not in the actual cup OR I don't have enough bio load, 3 small fish, to give it any work) They said a bigger sump will help fix the skimmer. But...its at the right water level, so whats the big deal???

 

[WVNed]

If you are happy with your disaster waiting to happen we are happy too.

 

[Harrison Gordon]

But what is the disaster?
If I make sure that the water level of a power outage once I install the new overflow can be handled by the sump, I can also install a return siphon break in lieu of concerns over the check valve (even though it is spring-type not flap) and then there is basically 0% chance of overflowing to my floor.

If I do find that my new overflow makes it so my sump can't handle it, great I guess I'm pulling out my wallet again. But I'm asking is there any other reason a larger sump is necessary, and can you explain what my LFS was saying to me about the skimmer not working in a small sump vs. a large sump?

Thanks!

 

[sghera64]

But what is the disaster?
If I make sure that the water level of a power outage once I install the new overflow can be handled by the sump, I can also install a return siphon break in lieu of concerns over the check valve (even though it is spring-type not flap) and then there is basically 0% chance of overflowing to my floor.

If I do find that my new overflow makes it so my sump can't handle it, great I guess I'm pulling out my wallet again. But I'm asking is there any other reason a larger sump is necessary, and can you explain what my LFS was saying to me about the skimmer not working in a small sump vs. a large sump?

Thanks!

Have you asked the LFS to clarify their concern?

Since you are pretty confident that the system is robust to a power loss, and there does not seem to be any other evidence of a problem, then you might simply keep the advice in mind as a potential improvement to (future) actual realized problems.

It’s not an improvement if it does not improve a known problem.

 

[sghera64]

But what is the disaster?
If I make sure that the water level of a power outage once I install the new overflow can be handled by the sump, I can also install a return siphon break in lieu of concerns over the check valve (even though it is spring-type not flap) and then there is basically 0% chance of overflowing to my floor.

If I do find that my new overflow makes it so my sump can't handle it, great I guess I'm pulling out my wallet again. But I'm asking is there any other reason a larger sump is necessary, and can you explain what my LFS was saying to me about the skimmer not working in a small sump vs. a large sump?

Thanks!

Have you asked the LFS to clarify their concern?

Since you are pretty confident that the system is robust to a power loss, and there does not seem to be any other evidence of a problem, then you might simply keep the advice in mind as a potential improvement to (future) actual realized problems.

It’s not an improvement if it does not improve a known problem.

 

[EW_Fish]

Return is about 3" under. Check valve is the push-spring style if you know what I mean.

But my LFS was implying that a bigger sump will help my tank in the sense of water quality. They were being very general, saying it's too small. They said my skimmer doesn't function properly and said if the sump is bigger that it would help but it is submerged to the proper height and fits inside so I don't see an issue????

You do not need a bigger sump plain and simple. Yes more water volume is good but I would focus on more rock for the tank then a bigger sump. If you tank is running fine then leave it. Skimmers function better with a constant level of water which it looks like you have done well with. No need to buy a bigger sump. My friend had a 300g with a 40b sump. Sumps are to just hide equipment from the main display

 

[SteadyC]

Protein skimmers require a certain level of water in the sump to run consistently, unless it’s a recirculating skimmer. In that size sump, how are you maintaining ATO such that the water level in the smaller sump doesn’t vary much, and thus impact the skimmer? That’s all I could think of, that they are saying related to the skimmer performance.

If you’re sump can maintain the volume of water during a power outage, if the check valve were to not work, then cool. Just something to test, I like to think of check valves as good for when you are there, doing water changes or whatever, but disaster wise I don’t count them in the equation and plan to ensure the sump will handle the extra volume alone.

I don’t see where your heaters are, but they are nice to have in sumps, not in DT, if that is a reason for a larger sump. I don’t think I see it in sump from the pics. Some people will plumb a second return pump for disasters too, another possible good reason for a larger sump. For me, I hate working in tight spaces, but that’s just me, .

 

[KrisReef]

If you can raise your return you might lower your risk, or just drill a small hole in your return just below the tank water level to break a siphon if the man made power supply and the the man-made completely fail safe flapper valve somehow both perform poorly while you are away. I've heard stories of these kinds of things happening, and lots of people get rid of their tanks afterwards, and that might be why the store folks wanted you to increase the overflow safety in your sump volume simply to protect their customer base? Otherwise there is no real concern because you have a good amount of carpet around the tank that can easily hold three inches of tank volume, no problem.

Otherwise, I truly do like your set up. It looks clean and neat.