Too much filtration?

Mrcote1 · Dec 20, 2018

I'm new to SPS coral keeping and I was under the impression my water should be VERY clean. I have a 75 gallon reef with a 40 gallon sump (10 gallon refugium). I dose aquaforest 1+2+3+ component. I have a gfo and carbon reactor. The GFO is the good stuff from bulkreefsupply and the carbon is the rox .8 carbon. I use RODI, run a skimmer 24 hours and use filter socks.

My nitrates are at absolute 0ppm with a salifert test kit (and API).
DKH 7.6
Calcium 440
Magnesium 1350
Phosphates 0 (I dont have a good phosphate kit yet)
Temp 78
Salinity 1.025
Tank is about 9 months old
And I have 5 3" fish that are fed 2 times daily.
Lighting is 48" reefbreeder photon v2+

I am finally able to get sps to not bleach I think but the growth is painfully slow (maybe 1/16" a month) and the colors are bland. Any suggestions?

Mrcote1 · Dec 20, 2018

Also I have about 3,500 GPH of flow split between 2 powerheads and a return pump

Flippers4pups · Dec 20, 2018

Mrcote1 said:
I'm new to SPS coral keeping and I was under the impression my water should be VERY clean. I have a 75 gallon reef with a 40 gallon sump (10 gallon refugium). I dose aquaforest 1+2+3+ component. I have a gfo and carbon reactor. The GFO is the good stuff from bulkreefsupply and the carbon is the rox .8 carbon. I use RODI, run a skimmer 24 hours and use filter socks.

My nitrates are at absolute 0ppm with a salifert test kit (and API).
DKH 7.6
Calcium 440
Magnesium 1350
Phosphates 0 (I dont have a good phosphate kit yet)
Temp 78
Salinity 1.025
Tank is about 9 months old
And I have 5 3" fish that are fed 2 times daily.
Lighting is 48" reefbreeder photon v2+

I am finally able to get sps to not bleach I think but the growth is painfully slow (maybe 1/16" a month) and the colors are bland. Any suggestions?

It was believed years and years ago that keeping SPS required virtually "0" N03 and P04.

That isn't the case and quite to the contrary it is in the coral best health to have some N03 and P04.

Using GFO is best applied when P04 levels climb above that of N03. Running GFO all the time will strip the water clean of P04.

Depending on your coral load in your system and maturity of your system, once your tank has stability, having your N03 at 5-10ppm and P04 at 0.02 is a good starting place. Higher levels can be kept, depending once again on maturity and coral bio load.

Having good test kits are essential.

I currently have 30-40 ppm N03 and 0.10 P04 in my system. I can do this because of coral load and tank maturity.

Foothill Corals · Dec 20, 2018

I would get a good nitrate test kit and a Hanna meter for Po4.

If you Po4 is lower that .06 I would not run GFO.

SPS do not like the water too clean you want detectable levels of phosphate and nitrate.

(I was slow to post, I agree with Flipper)

SPR1968 · Dec 20, 2018

Flippers4pups said:
It was believed years and years ago that keeping SPS required virtually "0" N03 and P04.

That isn't the case and quite to the contrary it is in the coral best health to have some N03 and P04.

Using GFO is best applied when P04 levels climb above that of N03. Running GFO all the time will strip the water clean of P04.

Depending on your coral load in your system and maturity of your system, once your tank has stability, having your N03 at 5-10ppm and P04 at 0.02 is a good starting place. Higher levels can be kept, depending once again on maturity and coral bio load.

Having good test kits are essential.

I currently have 30-40 ppm N03 and 0.10 P04 in my system. I can do this because of coral load and tank maturity.

This is exactly what I found, once my tank hit 12 months old I could keep SPS, prior to that they primarily went brown or generally became ‘deceased’!

You don’t need ultra low nutrient systems, and the corals like a little food.

My corals glow with life at higher nutrient levels

Mrcote1 · Dec 20, 2018

After lots of research the salifert test seemed to be like the best bet for low range nitrates? Is there a better one? And I plan on getting the phosphorus hanna checker for the low range phosphate tests. So should I just stop using carbon and Gfo? Or maybe start feeding like crazy? I was doing reefroids every 2 weeks but could do every day

Flippers4pups · Dec 20, 2018

Mrcote1 said:
After lots of research the salifert test seemed to be like the best bet for low range nitrates? Is there a better one? And I plan on getting the phosphorus hanna checker for the low range phosphate tests. So should I just stop using carbon and Gfo? Or maybe start feeding like crazy? I was doing reefroids every 2 weeks but could do every day

Yes, pull the GFO and use GAC for water clarity only. I maybe use it once a month.

Feed more can increase both, but a better approach would be to putting your skimmer on a timer and running it during the night. Reduce water changes to every other week or once a month till your numbers rise. Dosing N03 and P04 can be done, but try the above first.

Mrcote1 · Dec 20, 2018

You use the gfo or gac once a month?

Chris Villalobos · Dec 20, 2018

Salifert test kit for nitrates is terrible in my opinion. Right now I'm using Red Sea for viewing 0 to 5 ppm nitrate. I actually use API because it can tell me if I at least have 5ppm and if not I use the Red Sea. I hear NYOS has one of the best Nitrate test kits.

Foothill Corals · Dec 20, 2018

Mrcote1 said:
You use the gfo or gac once a month?

GAC once a month or so. GFO only as needed.

FWIW I would try feeding more before putting a skimmer on a timer. On my last tank acro growth really took off after adding a auto feeder for my fish.

Sarah24! · Dec 20, 2018

Hello,

I think the op has an excellent point or idea in hand. There are soooo many people that either say what is above and it honestly works. But, I have seen others who have low systems and works great. For example I always ran between 2-5 ppm no gfo no carbon just filter socks and micro pads in the sump. My corals did amazing, then lfs suggested I bump the nitrates to 20 ppm which I did. It cause most of my sps to rtn and or go brown.

It would be awesome to have a guide and it also depends on the tank. For example some have only sps domnate which is a tad easier, where I have a mixed reef and it’s softies and lps etc. it’s hard when some sps are doing amazing, others croak, or sps does great and my acans die, or all lps doing great and sps doing great except for a select few sps.

It’s varies greatly between tanks, but I still have had better luck with my nitrates between 2-5ppm and phosphates near undetectable but still there. I didn’t use to feed my corals and now I am twice a day and I think that’s helping more.

Again every thing listed above is correct, but any swing in alk, or calcium or salt or anything is bad. Plus it takes two weeks for your corals to say I’m mad at you and it’s too late. I have learned that fragging them while healthy and glueing them somewhere else prevents you from a total lose. I have also had some success where one starts to rtn I take coral super glue and (break the coral off) but then glue where it has rtn into the normal flesh. It has saved quiet a few of my corals and others too far gone still died but, it has some success as well as gluing your fingers together.

Flippers4pups · Dec 20, 2018

Mrcote1 said:
You use the gfo or gac once a month?

GAC once a month. GFO only as needed. This year I have personally used GFO maybe twice. That's my system. Each system is different.

SPR1968 · Dec 20, 2018

Chris Villalobos said:
Salifert test kit for nitrates is terrible in my opinion. Right now I'm using Red Sea for viewing 0 to 5 ppm nitrate. I actually use API because it can tell me if I at least have 5ppm and if not I use the Red Sea. I hear NYOS has one of the best Nitrate test kits.

I’ve actually changed to the NYOS from the Red Sea Nitrate Pro and for my eyes the NYOS yellow is better and also 4 minutes quicker at 5 minutes (it all adds up and we can’t get those wasted minutes back! Lol)

Mrcote1 · Dec 20, 2018

I appreciate all these responses! All awesome advice! It seems the general consensus is that what I have is not the ideal situation but I'm not too far from the ideal situation. alright so I'll buy the better test kits, shut off the gfo for now and test often to determine how often to run it. I'll start feeding my corals reef roids daily and throw in more fish food. Also with the GFO dont you waste a lot? You can't just leave it in a reactor for weeks with no water flow because it'll bunch up. So do you just use a couple scoops for a day or 2 then throw it away?

Flippers4pups · Dec 20, 2018

Sarah24! said:
Hello,

I think the op has an excellent point or idea in hand. There are soooo many people that either say what is above and it honestly works. But, I have seen others who have low systems and works great. For example I always ran between 2-5 ppm no gfo no carbon just filter socks and micro pads in the sump. My corals did amazing, then lfs suggested I bump the nitrates to 20 ppm which I did. It cause most of my sps to rtn and or go brown.

It would be awesome to have a guide and it also depends on the tank. For example some have only sps domnate which is a tad easier, where I have a mixed reef and it’s softies and lps etc. it’s hard when some sps are doing amazing, others croak, or sps does great and my acans die, or all lps doing great and sps doing great except for a select few sps.

It’s varies greatly between tanks, but I still have had better luck with my nitrates between 2-5ppm and phosphates near undetectable but still there. I didn’t use to feed my corals and now I am twice a day and I think that’s helping more.

Again every thing listed above is correct, but any swing in alk, or calcium or salt or anything is bad. Plus it takes two weeks for your corals to say I’m mad at you and it’s too late. I have learned that fragging them while healthy and glueing them somewhere else prevents you from a total lose. I have also had some success where one starts to rtn I take coral super glue and (break the coral off) but then glue where it has rtn into the normal flesh. It has saved quiet a few of my corals and others too far gone still died but, it has some success as well as gluing your fingers together.

Sarah, each system is different and each system has a bioload capacity.

RTN and STN can be contributed to many factors such as overall coral health, pest and bacterial strains. Environmental stressors such a excess nutrients, can contribute to this, but it's the bacterial strains surrounding the coral that do the most damage when the coral is stressed.

Most corals such as SPS can adapt to their surroundings and can handle changes if done very slowly.

Flippers4pups · Dec 20, 2018

Mrcote1 said:
I appreciate all these responses! All awesome advice! It seems the general consensus is that what I have is not the ideal situation but I'm not too far from the ideal situation. alright so I'll buy the better test kits, shut off the gfo for now and test often to determine how often to run it. I'll start feeding my corals reef roids daily and throw in more fish food. Also with the GFO dont you waste a lot? You can't just leave it in a reactor for weeks with no water flow because it'll bunch up. So do you just use a couple scoops for a day or 2 then throw it away?

When P04 rises to undesirable levels, then it's used. When test kits show it's dropped to levels needed, it's removed and discarded. This process can take a few days to weeks depending on water volume.

phlibbyreefer · Dec 20, 2018

i also have just tested my nitrates at 0 undetectable. phosphates at .10. I have to increase my nitrates without increasing phosphates. To do this I plan on keeping my gfo. feeding a little heavier on dry flakes and pellets and keep my mysis shrimp and frozen food to a min. I heard dry flakes and pellets were higher in nitrates than phosphates. Turn my skimmer to a much dryer skim.

I am thinking undetectable nitrates with some phosphates around .10 are causing my cyano. I also have bubble algae. Other than that no algae and very clean rocks, etc. I just start developing coraline.

Flippers4pups · Dec 20, 2018

phlibbyreefer said:
i also have just tested my nitrates at 0 undetectable. phosphates at .10. I have to increase my nitrates without increasing phosphates. To do this I plan on keeping my gfo. feeding a little heavier on dry flakes and pellets and keep my mysis shrimp and frozen food to a min. I heard dry flakes and pellets were higher in nitrates than phosphates. Turn my skimmer to a much dryer skim.

I am thinking undetectable nitrates with some phosphates around .10 are causing my cyano. I also have bubble algae. Other than that no algae and very clean rocks, etc. I just start developing coraline.

Raising your N03, believe it or not, will bring down your P04. It won't eliminate it, but it will drop.

Nathan Milender · Dec 20, 2018

I tend to shoot for a DkH closer to 10. I am not sure if it does or does not matter to the coral as nobody discusses matching DkH for transfers or acclimation. It can make a difference on ph and ph stability though and you had not listed ph.

I also am setting up a newer system somewhere 4-5 months in. For the reasons mentioned I have not turned on the skimmer or started to run carbon yet. Like your system, mine does not have detectable nitrate, but I have had some phosphate (I have a hanna). I am not sure when I am going to turn on the skimmer, but my thought was to wait until there is something that needs to be taken out. I am also trying to get some of the smaller critters (copepods, various algae, microbes etc) going and so I figured why have the skimmer take them out?

A main difference between my system and yours is the presence of SPS. I have not put any in yet. I have some mushrooms and soft coral lined up to get this weekend. The shrimp, crabs, gobies, and blennies are quite happy however. I only bring this up to point out my system may not reflect your problem. Most animals need the basic components however, so if you think you are over-filtrating, turn it off and see what happens. Take readings once a day, or twice a day and see if it makes a difference. You can always turn it back on. Also, I have seen plenty of successful sps tanks maintained with good in-tank flows and no skimmer relying on weekly water changes alone. While I have not done it, it does seem possible. I have had success with saltwater tanks using undergravel only with weekly water changes but those systems did not have coral.